1984 06 Zigzag New Order Feature

CRIME PAYS!

New Order, Innocent before proven guilty, gassing. Eye witness; Jayne Houghton.

Sitting in a mobile greenhouse bound for Manchester. It's 80 deg. and an old dear is telling me her life story all the way there . . . such a glamorous start!

New Order's penchant for eating journalists alive, or at the very least being totally uncommunicative doesn't fill me with too much dread (Liar! You were never off the toilet last night— Writer's Mum) as I've known Peter Hook for some time. With him is Rob Gretton, New Order's fifth member/manager who has just been to the dentist and spent the afternoon cradling his jaw.

We join half the population of Manchester, crammed into the city centre and the one-square foot of grass and just as we're about to start Hookey and Rob remove their T-shirts. Thankfully this casts a lighthearted mood over the whole affair.

ZZ: Why no British tours, only unconventional one-offs?

H: The reason we play unconventional gigs is because the people we work with are pretty unconventional. Pretty cookey. They just phone up and say, 'Do you want to do a gig in Hulme Working Mens Club?' If it appeals to us we just do it.

People who deal with the Apollo etc and all straight venues never bother phoning us up because they think we don't do British tours. It's nice to play odd places.

ZZ: You never seem to work with major London promoters - Curd, Block, etc.?

H: We have worked with them in the past but they never phone us up—never ask us. You tend to get to know people who are doing things—tend to work with people who you know. You don't need to seek out John Curd or people like that. Keep it in the family!

R: We do spur of the moment gigs. All sorts of gigs.

H: It's good being spur of the moment, it stops you thinking of things too much. Well we think ebout things but tend to let them just float about then suddenly do them.

ZZ: A lot of money goes into the Hacienda right?

H: Well, we part-own the Hacienda so yeah a lot of money goes in if you put it like that.

ZZ: I did. Is it a tax dodge?

R: Yeah, a very good tax dodge!

H: Tax loss more like!

ZZ: You made £100,000 out of Paul Young's 'Love Will Tear Us Apart'?

R: Did we? No, not yet but I'm sure we will do

H: We made £30,000 so far.

R: We'll get more from overseas royalties. He's Number One in Germany.

M: Oh! We're Number Nine in South Africa with 'Blue Monday'!

R: Factory in Zimbabwe comes good!

ZZ: Do you mind other people doing your songs if they come out badly?

H: The funny thing with Paul Young ... I mean it was a sort of vocal interpretation of it. I don't mind, it's alright but when I saw him on telly in Germany miming to it I thought . . . (Grimacing.)

R: It's quite a compliment really. I'm surprised nobody has covered any New Order stuff.

H: You could imagine Frank Sinatra doing 'Love Will Tear Us Apart'.

ZZ: I hear James Last has applied to cover 'Blue Monday'?

H: (Surprised) He has actually.

ZZ: Do you know how he'll do it?

H: Christ knows but it will certainly be interesting. Did you watch 'Star Parade'?

ZZ: Sometimes.

H: I'd really like to do 'Star Parade', if it's still going.
(They later suggest that royalties from the James Last cover will reap £200,000!)

ZZ: Has anyone else applied to cover anything?

H: No. BUT EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE RIPPING IT OFF! I suppose that's the same thing.

ZZ: Nobody seems to work you out or have you sussed. Is there a big plan or scheme worked out?

H: (In mock annoyance) Better ask Rob, he never tells me anything.

ZZ: Okay Rob. Whoever made a monumental decision about New Order?

R: Nobody except that we're nazis. Everyone seems to have that worked out. Plan, is there a plan? Well to a certain extent in that we know what we'll be doing to a point. The plan is. . . to be as successful as possible without . . . er, without...

H: Compromising ourselves.

ZZ: The successful bands like The Police, Duran Duran etc. Have they compromised?

H: Well yes because.

R: No, no. Making as much money as possible by any means possible . . . a lot of bands are like that. The people that compromise are the ones that say they have ideals but....

H: Like Siouxsie and the Banshees. They said they were punks, they were different but they've taken the easy way out, playing the Apollos etc just because everyone else is doing it.

ZZ: Doing it your way. the hard way, has it created any problems?

H: We seem to have to explain ourselves a lot more. Factory have worked very hard. Least it's not too bad now with the record straight in at 21. Shows we're reaching some people which shows they seem to like the way we work. I could never imagine doing what Duran Duran are doing, phone-in on radio and shit like that. It'd be embarrassing.

ZZ: The people that made ‘Blue Monday' a hit. ‘Thieves Like Us‘ in at 21 - they expect that sort of thing.

H: oh yeah, l know.

ZZ: Does it bother you - having to live up to such expectations which you don‘t deliver?

H: We don't have to live up to it but you get into situations like, urgh!. . . autographs! Someone prints you have a fan club and you get 10.000 letters asking for details and we're sitting there, never even thought of it.

ZZ: Do you have a fan club now?

H: Nahl But me mam quite likes us. She’s funny me mam. She went mad about Depeche Mode. I'd never noticed it sounded like 'Confusion'. It never clicked but me mam was going barmy.

ZZ: Christ, they're ten a penny. Dormannu - have you heard that? It could have been you on bass. You must get pissed off.

H: No, we get it all the time.

ZZ: Who do you emulate and respect? You said you wanted to work with Kraftwerk.

H: I never said that.

ZZ: Didn't you?

H: Can't remember. I like Kraftwerk but I don't feel drawn to working with them.

ZZ: You say you rip people off. It must be subtle.

H: Musicians copy other people all the time. It's difficult to be original. You have to take the feelings of things. People listen to 'Blue Monday' and they might use the feeling rather than the notes.

What we do is start off with the riff . . . like the bass line out of 'Family Affair' is quite good but then it goes into something else.

R: You have a starting point then adapt it.

H: We always try and write fast stuff. Start off going, 'Yeah, let's go!' but in the end it's nothing like that. You end up coming up with something that's as good as, if not better than, the thing you ripped off in the first place. I rip off bass lines all the time. 'Thieves Like Us' is 'Emma' by Hot Chocolate.

ZZ: Bernard said (begins quoting) ‘Joy Division were just four dumbos from Manchester'.

R: Yeah! He's full of shit.

ZZ: 'Four dumbos who wrote what they felt - for some reason everyone found it earth-shattering!

H: That's Barney exaggerating! People thought we were good, obviously. People enjoyed what we did I mean if you listen to a band like Play Dead, who I really like, Joy Division played the same stuff that Play Dead are playing. Do you see what I mean?

ZZ: No.

H: Well, they're similar Play Dead tried to get a deal with Factory but they've had records out and Factory deal with people who haven't. Si tried to get them on Factory as a reaction against 'big business' type of thing, like Death Cult. It seems Death Cult want to be really big. They should concentrate more on music rather than management. If they're lacking some bite that's where its lacking - records, because I think Si is a really good manager.

ZZ: You never do much press.

H: We've done a lot recently. Germany. We tend to do a lot abroad because it's easy to say yes rather than tell 300 people why you don't think its that important.

ZZ: Does the colour coding on ‘Confusion’ mean anything?

H: No.

ZZ: It's been said it reads, 'F.O. Jew'.

H: Yeah I heard that as well. In fact it reads 'Confusion' with 'New Order' overlaid. I mean, Peter Saville may have written that, who knows? You'd have to ask him. He might be a closet fascist and he's not told us the bastard. That's why we're getting all the stick!

ZZ: You're sidestepping. Why do you always brush off allegations. If they're not true why not deny them?

H: It's not important. It's ridiculous.

R: It's so ludicrous it's not worth talking about. It's not something you can deny anyway. If we denied it people would think what they think anyway.

ZZ: You should try.

R: Why? If I turned round and said you're a lesbian you could say no but there's no way you could prove it.

ZZ: I could.

R: No, even if you had sex with me it wouldn't prove you weren't a lesbian. If people wanted to believe you were they'd think it no matter what.

ZZ: Okay, point taken. Let's change the subject.

R: No, it's strange. Why do people call us fascists?

ZZ: I don't know.

R: Why don't they call us communists? We've done rock against racism, CND ... basically we're just mercenary.

H: The point that gets me is if we say no we're not fascists they shut their ears, don't want to hear it. They want you to say yes and they think 'I still think the bastard's a nazi!'

R: I've noticed recently, particularly in the NME, that they've gone overboard on the fact that Factory are fascists but I mean, NME. . . IPC. . . how can capitalist running dogs call us fascists? What we're doing is 10 times more worthwhile and anti-fascist than what they're doing. The problem with most journalists is that they realise they're irrelevant.

R: The thing with N.O. and Joy Div is that people really like to stir it. We do actually get up peoples noses.

ZZ: They stir it more because of your mystique. You've never given yourself to the press.

R: If someone calls you fascist it tells you more about the person thats calling you it, I'd NEVER dream of calling anyone a fascist.

H: I suppose a lot of it is to do with imagery. The style you put across like having no titles, no photos on the sleeve. They derive fascist connotations from that.

R: Fascism is based around propaganda and manipulation, using the media. Christ! Who are we manipulating? Everything we do is anti-media!

H: This is really interesting for us, analysing all this. People who call you fascists are such turkeys.

R: Who gives a shit who calls us fascists?

H: We're too busy. I'm sure if Duran Duran were called fascists they'd have to appear on radio every hour to deny it. I've got better things to do

R: Jayne, what exactly is a fascist?

ZZ: Exactly? Well, errr....

R: See! You don't know. How can you call us fascists if you don't know what one is?

H: She's not calling us fascists, she's asking what we think of the allegations. Look if you take these things seriously it would do your head in. Like in America we did so much press in the end I started making things up, ridiculous things but they lap it all up. It's just to break the boredom. It's really boring playing the same songs every night as well.

ZZ: Change the set round.

H: We do it but it gets boring. We have to take into account the different people every night. We must compromise in some way I suppose. It is boring but it's part of the price you must pay.

ZZ: You shun radio but provide 7" singles unavailable to the public for them to play.

R: The reason we've done the last three singles on 12" only is because they're made that way. Long songs. We could have edited them down but what's the point? We will do a 7" eventually but up to now our songs haven't fitted that format.

ZZ: Except for radio. You shun advertising but employ someone to plug your records.

R: I don't think he's a plugger, you should see him in action. He did a press release saying we re-released Joy Div material. We never deleted or re-released ANY of our material. It's always available.

ZZ: Try telling record shops that.

R: Everyone assumes it's deleted but it's only out of stock or whatever. 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' is still selling brilliantly. We could put 'Atmosphere' out as a 7". It would be a top-ten hit.

ZZ: Why don't you?

H: It's been out once. We're on to new things. Our object isn't to make millions out of royalties for ever.

ZZ: What happens to Ian Curtis' royalties.

R: They go to his wife.

H: And his daughter.

ZZ: I'll only raise one point about Ian...

R: You've just raised it.

ZZ: I'll raise another. You weren't allowed at Ian's funeral.

R: We were. We all went and to the inquest.

ZZ: I thought his family blamed the band for what happened.

H: To a certain extent. It was an upsetting time. People need scapegoats at a time like that. The band was a big part of his life. We took him away from home. It's obvious and understandable to get the blame.

ZZ: How long did it take you to get back on your feet?

R: Barney's not back on his feet yet.

H: We never gave up though. We never made a conscious decision to start again. We knew we'd just carry on. Always.

ZZ: Did you ever anticipate such success?

H: Well I thought Joy Div were very successful.

ZZ: 'Blue Monday' has made New Order successful.

R: It was a successful record yes but that doesn't mean the group is a success. I wouldn't say we were successful, only partly.

H: The very fact that it pays your wage every week makes you a success. Joy Division being full-time was a success. Since then all we've done is got more money.

R: I would define success as New Order being a household name which it isn't. We're a pretty strange group. We are, to a certain extent, still a cult group. I'd call us a successful cult group.

ZZ: Is the ultimate achievement being a household name then?

H: Rob envisages it differently. My idea of being successful has materialised. It's not important to me to a be a household name.

ZZ: Your ambitions differ then?

H: Only to a point. We're different people.

ZZ: But running the group different ways? It was said that you're the fifth member of the band yet you want different things.

R: We agree that we will be happy, successful, whatever, so long as we enjoy doing what we do, basically. A household name would pose too many problems. Even now I can't go to gigs without being harangued by hundreds of people.

ZZ: Pete, you help Lavolta, Stockholm Monsters, The Wake etc who are all friends. Would you help others?

H: Anyone interested in what I do, yes. They're friends because they showed an interest so I wanted to work with them. It's funny. People think you'll be a real stuck up bastard and they're dead surprised to find you're really normal. I couldn't work with someone I didn't like even if they paid you.

ZZ: You don't ask for money. That's nice.

H: I'm a nice person! I enjoy working with people who I like. I find it easy. It gives me a chance to try things I wouldn't do in New Order.

R: It can be very time consuming.

H: Yeah, that's the only problem, unfortunately

ZZ: You have a very cosy set up. Manager who is really a member of the band and everyone is really close. Is this a protective measure?

H: Everyone is a friend and they've been with us from the start. It's really funny. You go places and people can't believe you're going out with your road crew! It's perfectly natural to me. We're friends, never employers.

ZZ: The 'Official New Order Book' by Mark Johnson. What ever happened to it?

R: It was never official, he just tagged along everywhere getting loads of information which turns out to be full of mistakes.

H: We could never have an official book unless one of us wrote it really.

R: This bloke got too fanatical. Too intrusive.

ZZ: Too close?

H: No, it's like he'd get blase. Used to walk into a dressing room and sit down as if he was one of us. We don't need shit like that when we're working. On 'Ceremony', all the time. It's too much.

ZZ: The director of' Brideshead Revisited' did the 'Confusion' video. What made you choose him?

H: He's a friend of Tony Wilson. It worked really well.

ZZ: Are you still working on the 'Blue Monday' video?

H: Steve's been messing around at home, working on it for ages.

ZZ: Steve?

R: Steve's the drummer. The nazi, you know.

ZZ: Very clever. Let's get off that one. What's lined up for this year?

H: We may go to Japan. There's a Danish festival. It would be nice to do a British tour. We haven't done one since the Buzzcocks tour. Remember that Jayne?

ZZ: Yes. Long time ago. Remember Futurama? Would you do another?

H: Yeah. We'll do anything. So long as John Keenan pays us. He still owes us £4,600 from Deeside. I mean he paid The Damned and they're terrible!

R: Ask us when we're going to do our next LP.

ZZ: Okay. When?

H: Don't know. Even Rob wants to know that one. I've a feeling it's August.

ZZ: Okay, we'll leave it there. Thanks.

R: It was nothing.

• Postscript.

Avoid the recently released Mark Johnson book; An Ideal for Living (Proteus Books — £5.95.) and you may miss all the juicy bits like 'The Peter Hook Riots' in Holland or the 'True Nazi Connotations Behind New Order' or even the author's misguided advice on the band:

"New Order should grip the hand of commerciality, let the hot glow of their appeal burn away the dull suspicions of archaic merriment and wet broken radicals". The Mills & Boon potential really shines through, although there's a smattering of sick bits. At Bradys, Liverpool, after a stage hand asked where the singer was, he was told by the band, "he's hanging around in the kitchen somewhere"!

Johnson writes about Joy Division with such authority yet he never even saw them! All this goes to show that anyone with an intense obsession can write a book.