1990 05 12 Melody Maker Revenge

VIKINGDOM COME

WITH THE RELEASE OF A NEW SINGLE, 'PINEAPPLE FACE'S BIG DAY' AND A FORTHCOMING ALBUM, PETER HOOK HOPES TO PROVE THAT REVENGE ISN'T JUST A NEW ORDER OFFSHOOT, BUT HIS WAY OF MAKING LIFE INTERESTING AGAIN. JON WILDE TALKS TO THE BASS PLAYER ABOUT THE MANCHESTER SCENE, HOW REVENGE STOPPED NEW ORDER GETTING INTO A RUT AND WHY HE'S A ROCK'N'ROLL VIKING WITH EIGHT SOLID INCHES THAT NEVER LET HIM DOWN. PICS: TOM SHEEHAN.

PETER HOOK, THE WORLD'S NUMBER one phallic bass guitarist, is sitting at the bar in Sheffield's Leadmill, staring into his pint of Stella Artois, considering his grand revenge.

"It's f***ing great to have this," he says. "It's a real kick in the arse for me. Basically, it's like starting all over again. I can count the three most exciting periods of my life: the start of Joy Division and Warsaw; the start of New Order; and the start of Revenge.

"There's people out there waiting for me to fail dismally. I know that. But, y'know, I really don't give a f***! As far as I'm concerned, Revenge can't fail. Because I'm not making any great claims for it. I never considered how successful this might be. It depends what you're used to, don't it? For Revenge to be really successful, for me, it would have to be bigger than New Order. Well, I'm not going to make that sort of claim for it. For them lot (guitarist Dave, keyboardist CJ), it's already successful. I look at their happy, smiling faces and it's enough for me."

While Hook holds court, the bar begins to fill up. A gaggle of nervous youths form a scrum at the edge of our table, shooting shy glances at their bearded nero, preparing themselves for a bold approach.

Finally, after much nudging and fidgeting, one of them gingerly approaches Hook.

"Er.. .what time are you on tonight then?"

"When I feel like it. I might not bother. There's something on the telly later."

"Er... can I have your autograph then?"

"'Ave you got a bit of paper?"

"Er... no, you could sign my tee shirt."

"What shirt is it? Happy Mondays? F*** off, you c***!

"Er... I've got a New Order one at home."

"Well that's not much good, you cheeky bastard! F*** off! Bend over and I'll sign yer arse for ya! Bend over and pass me a biro!"

Red-faced in defeat, the fan skulks back to his mates. I glance at Hook and he's quaking with laughter.

Five minutes later, a second volunteer leaves the pack and ambles over.

"Er... can I have your autograph please? It's, er, for me brother."

"Nah, f*** off! Tell him to come here and ask for himself."

Hook finally relents and scribbles on a beer-mat.

The fan clutches it gratefully and hangs around awkwardly, thinking of something to say.

"Er... have you left New Order then?"

"F*** off and mind your own business you c***."

Another satisfied customer.

HE'S acutely aware of his public persona. Always willing to play up to people's preconceptions.

"That whole Viking thing really amuses me," he laughs. "If that's what people expect, then I'm bound to play up to it, aren't I? I have a bit of fun with it, sure. Cos it annoys Bernard."

"It depends how seriously you take all that. I always take what I do very seriously. My attitude towards people like you is not very serious. That's one of the things I like about New Order. Their attitude towards things like press has never been serious. Everyone, right down to Tony Wilson and Rob Gretton, has always gone out of their way to make sure that the press side was taken with a pinch of salt. For me, that's been great. It's meant that I don't have to worry about it.

"So I've been pegged as a bit of an awkward bastard. A bit of a hard man. Well, I'll take advantage of that. Look, I can be really obstreperous. I can really be obnoxious. I can do what the f*** I want. Then I meet people I like and they find out that I'm a beautiful, kind, warm-hearted human being. They discover the sensitive side of Peter Hook and think they've found something that nobody else has seen. It's all a load of bollocks."

Over the course of a day with Revenge, you'll find no shortage of willing horses offering their testimony in favour of Hook.

"He's a real teddy-bear," says Tony, Revenge's manager. "Once you get past that awkward exterior, you'll find he's as soft as shit."

"Peter Hook," says guitarist Dave. "He's my fairy-godmother. Very gentle, very sensitive. Gay Vikings are always like that."

A bit of a dark horse then?

"Oh yeah," Hook laughs. "That's what makes life interesting, innit? If there's something about me I don't want you to know, I'm not gonna f***ing tell you, am I?

"I tell you though, I used to be a bit of a bastard all right. I was really short-fused in the old days. Oh yeah. Alot of it had to do with the situations I was put in. Having to deal with a lot of cynicals c***s. Real stupid bastards. It doesn't get me down anymore, y'know. When I used to meet twats like that, I'd plant one on them. These days, I just walk away. Not worth it is it?"

HOOK has been considering some kind of extra-curricula activity since the mid-Eighties. As New Order grew less and less enthusiastic about live performances, he resolved to gather together a group of musicians "that revelled in dragging their saggy arses around the country in a battered old Transit".

Hook and Dave first met up in 1982 when the former dropped into a rehearsal studio where Dave's band, Lavolto Lakota, were in residence.

Love at first sight then?

"Not exactly," Dave laughs. "Like everyone, I had my preconceptions about Hookey. For a start, I f***ing hated New Order. I used to think they were just a bunch of wankers who'd come out of the punk thing and sold out. I used to think Joy Division were a bunch of miserable bastards.

"So I expected Hookey to be a serious boy in a raincoat and all that. I expected him to be really introverted. He wasn't like that at all. He's like the leather-clad rocker in New Order. I always thought it was odd that he was in a band like New Order, even when he became a mate. Then I realised that that's what makes it work. That clash of personalities, if you like.

"Revenge is a bit like that too. People think of CJ as very art-noise, very techno. My background is the punk end of things. Hookey's dead in the middle. He's had the experience of seeing how electro works. On the other hand, he's into The Stooges and the Velvets. You need that friction to give you a musical verve. That's always good."

He is untroubled by the fact that Revenge are seen as Peter Hook's plaything.

"I was ready for those assumptions. It was inevitable really. That's okay. Once the album is out and we've got a few gigs behind us, it'll even out a bit more. See, Hookey's got a massive history and massive success behind him. What CJ and myself have done pales in comparison. We have to accept that. But when we started Revenge, it was as three equals..."

Hook is looking on, a smirk playing about his lips.

"Oh yeah," he says. "Can't deny that. These lads, I've taught 'em everything they know. I'm like a mother to them. It's a three-way input in Revenge. No doubt about it. I do all the f***ing hard work and they get the sandwiches in. They're just around cos I need someone to take the piss out of. You need a way out Jon."

Dave shrugs and carries on regardless.

"So, as I was saying, it's just a matter of time before people start to see Revenge as a band in the proper sense. If I start moaning about the fact that no one wants to talk to me and they only want to talk to Hookey..."

Hook roars with laughter.

"It's cos you're a thick c*** Dave. Let's face it. That's why no one wants to talk to you. You thick Cornish bastard. I'd cross the f***ing road if I saw you coming."

Dave is joined by his girlfriend. Hook is off again.

"Woooooar! She's looking better than ever. Oi! Let go of that girl you dirty bastard! What's your f***ing game you randy sod. He's like a f***ing dog on heat I tell you. Hey! Keep yer'ands off her, you filthy c***!"

You have to admit though Pete, he's a handsome bastard. He might as well take advantage.

"'Andsome! 'Andsome? That c***! Jesus Christ! Melody Maker journalist in homosexual fantasy. I can see the headlines now. I'm afraid you're out on your own there mate!"

Later, Dave is quietly explaining his theories of Cornish nationalism and Druid shamanism, the subjects closest to his heart.

"Basically," he's saying, "everything revolves around the trees see..."

At this point. Hook positively erupts with laughter. He's heard this one before.

"Oh, he's not on about those f***ing trees again is he? The daft bastard!"

Starts singing...

'"I talk to the trees, but they don't listen to me .."

Dave finally runs out of patience.

"Look Hookey, shut the f*** up will you? He never listens. I tried to teach him about the Vikings. The last battle the Cornish had against the English was in alliance with the Vikings as it happens. Perhaps me and Hookey are reincarnated from that time."

As I turn to catch Hook's reaction, he's pissing into a beer-glass.

"Here Dave," he says, handing the glass across, "have a sup on this. Might knock some f***ing sense into you."

IS Revenge just a hobby for Hook then? Something to mess around with while New Order are on the back-burner?

"You must be f***ing joking pal," Hook explodes. "Hobby?! That's a f***ing insult that is. Hobby my arse!"

A kind of ego boost then?

"You really think my ego needs boosting? Ha! Ha! Nah. C'mon, everyone needs ego to some extent, everyone enjoys it. But it's like a mental illness innit? You nave to be careful with your ego. It can completely take over. You see it happen to people. Their egos are bigger than anything else.

"If I was ignored and needed attention, I might behave differently. Look at Julian Cope will ya. I hate to say it, but the poor c*** is dead and buried. He's got to fight his way back and it's very difficult. He's still quite good in a way y'know. But he's stuck in a f***ing crater. It's sad really.

"For me it's different. If Revenge falls on its arse, then I've got New Order to go back to. With Revenge, we haven't got to the point where we're a great band. But, to me, the signs look really good. It's pleasing me inwardly to do it. It has made me really optimistic for the future. It's given me something I couldn't get out of New Order. A lifeline. A new lease of life."

He's all too aware that Revenge makes him a sitting-target for anyone who fancies a crack.

"Well, that doesn't bother me a bit! It's the others I feel sorry for, Dave and CJ. You could sit down with them and tear them to pieces. They wouldn't know what to say. They are suffering from my experience if you like. I get all this attention from the likes of you. Front cover this, front cover that. They have never learned to deal with it. I've been doing this for 13 f***ing years. I know exactly how to deal with c***s like you. Nah, just kidding Jon. You're all right mate. See, when we get judged as an offshoot or a continuation of New Order, rather than as a new band, I can handle it all right, but it's unfair on Dave and CJ. Me? I don't give a f*** to be honest!

"I don't need anyone else to tell me how good or bad it is. The only thing that matters is whether I judge it to be good or not. I've always had creepy bastards coming up to me and telling me what I do is great. There's always been a queue of people backstage after a gig, waiting to say, 'Oh Peter, that was so marvellous'. Half of those c***s were hanging around the bar all night or chasing women. I'd rather someone came up and told me it was a load of shit, actually. Ideally, they'd say nothing at all, to be honest.

"Y' know. I've always been expected to justify myself to the press and I've never gone along with that. Journalists have always got upset when !'ve refused to talk to them. Some c*** comes up to me, thrusts a microphone in my face and says, 'Right Pete, tell us about your new single'. So I tell 'em to f*** off, don't I? Course I do. I could never understand that attitude.

"I guess, as a musician, you disappoint a lot of people when they meet you. But that's one thing I like about Manchester and the Manchester scene. If you go to The Hacienda, you'll see the biggest concentration of musicians ever in one place. But they never get lauded or treated as musicians in the accepted sense. They're just construed to be people. See, the scene in Manchester is bigger than the musicians.You don't get this wholesale importance placed on you just because you happen to be in a band or because you're supposed to have a message. That's utter bollocks if you ask me.

"These days, the place is f***ing crawling with foreign journalists asking me about the new scene. 'Why are there so many good bands in Manchester at the moment?' That sort of thing. I'm sitting there thinking, 'F*** me, I always thought I was in one of the good bands'. I always thought The Smiths were a good band. James, A Certain Ratio... these f***ers are talking as if Manchester never had a decent band before. Bollocks to that! I can safely say that Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses would not exist if it wasn't for the Electric Circus. If it wasn't for the whole thing that's put the thread through Manchester. It's not just New Order and The Hacienda either. Loads of people who aren't celebrities, but who've done a lot for Manchester.

"Then there's bands like The Fall. I've really enjoyed the way Mark (Smith) has been current throughout the whole thing. He deserves acclaim. He's one of the most interesting men I've met. A complete and utter lying bastard. But hilarious with it, y'know."

DOES he find the current obsequious obsession with Manchester slightly absurd?

"Nah, not absurd. The thing is that people expect me to be really jealous and envious. When I worked with The Stone Roses, I thought they were one of the nicest bunch of lads I've ever met. Every time I read something about them achieving so much, it reminds me of when I got that for the first time, how excited I was. It just makes me happy for them. I would never hold any bitterness or anything like that. I think it's f***ing great that Happy Mondays are so successful. It takes the pressure off New Order. It frees us from the stigma of being the only successful band in Manchester.

"See, I've always thought of myself as lucky. Joy Division were lucky. New Order were lucky. I hope Revenge will be the same way. Because of our history, our attitude, the way we worked, we always found ourselves in really good situations. That's what we've fed off all along.

"Endless touring and endless recording wouldn't do me any good. The fact that I have to go home and fight for The Hacienda and Dry to get licences. To do the 10th Summer Of Punk day at G-Mex. To be asked to do the England World Cup record. All those things heighten and spice up my life. It never came down to just being in a band. There was always New Order, but there was always so much happening on the periphery. It's always interesting and exciting. Now I've got the best of both worlds. If I want to drag my arse around England in a Transitvan, playing to 200 people every night, I can do that and get lauded for it.

"There's not many people who can do all that. I count myself as very, very lucky for that reason. It's all fulfilling. Then again, if the truth were known. I'd like to drag my kids off to a desert island and build sandcastles all day. So there you go!"

HOW good are Revenge? Their debut single, "7 Reasons"/"Jesus I Love You" fell somewhat short of even the most modest expectations, was roundly dismissed as "second-rate New Order" and promptly disappeared without a trace.

Their second single, "Pineapple Face's Big Day" is a lumbering hunk of digital hiNRG that sounds suspiciously like a New Order leftover. An early glimpse of their forthcoming album "One True Passion", does little to alleviate the suspicion that Revenge are content to live in the shadow of England's finest pop group. They are proving to be something less than the radical shift in direction for Hook that was presumed.

When faced with criticisms like these, Hook merely shrugs and sighs wearily. He's been expecting them.

"Look, everyone's saying, 'It's just New Order with loud guitars'. Fair enough really. But I'm partly responsible for the New Order sound remember. Their bass-sound is my sound. Now that I'm working with new people, it's not going to change that radically. What am I supposed to do? Make a f***ing reggae album?

"The same people who criticise Revenge for sounding like New Order hardly raise an eyebrow every time a New Order soundalike band comes along. The New Order sound has been ripped off so often. It's like the Joy Division sound. Jesus Christ! The U2s, Simple Minds and Cures of the world all adopted the Joy Division sound and made it acceptable. But no one seizes on that.

"To me, the New Order comparisons are not that important. I'd like to think we can ride it out. At the moment, Revenge's own sound is coming through especially in the live shows."

HE admits that the fundamental reason for starting Revenge was the lack of gigging opportunity offered in New Order.

"Well look, I've always liked the live side of it. It hasn't changed for me. When Joy Division started, there was nothing we could do but play live. No one was begging us to make a record. So we gigged and gigged. I enjoyed it then and my feelings have never changed. For me, the be and end all of a song is playing it live and putting it across to people that way.

"The others just got disillusioned with how difficult it was. Sure, it is difficult. I wouldn't deny that. At one point, we all agreed to stop touring because it wasn't doing any of us any good. We were too used to each other and the whole thing became very predictable. We didn't have to tour America. We could sit at home and imagine what it was going to be like. So, when New Order took the emphasis off touring, I started to wonder what I was going to do for kicks. It might come as a surprise to people to realise that there's not a great many things that I'm physically or mentally interested in doing. It can be a bit frightening, that. It just means that I've been sucked into it lock, stock and barrel and there's not much I can do about it.

"It's like when Melody Maker asked me to sum up the Eighties. Jesus Christ! As far as I was concerned, there was the birth of my children and there was New Order. That was it. F***ing weird really innit?"

Aren't you a bit of a lazy bastard?

"Are you calling me a lazy bastard, pal? Nah, the thing is that I've always been a bit of a lazy sod when it comes to doing things that I don't want to do. Truthfully though, I'm a bit of a workaholic. Oh yeah. I can't f***ing stop, me. It's perfect now in a way, having Revenge and New Order. I've got to get satisfaction out of both. I don't see any problem with that either. It's a bit weird to do things that are successful and get satisfaction out of it all. Shouldn't be allowed, should it?

"I'll tell you one thing though. I'll tell you this for nothing. What musicians do is trivialised a lot. You can take anyone's record— Kylie, Big Fun, Wire, Iggy, Nick Cave—you know that they've all done roughly the same amount of work. Whether you like the records or not, you know what they've been through to do it."

Yet New Order have never made it look like hard work.

"Well, yeah, I appreciate your point. But I'm not talking about the musical side. I'm talking purely about the physical side. As far as the musical side goes, I never thought of myself as a musician in the accepted sense. I always believed, and I still believe, that a lot of f***ers can do my job. And let's face it Jon, any old f***er could do your job. Ha! Ha! Just kidding. You're all right mate.

"See, that's the thing with Revenge. As far as musicianship goes, they're generally a lot better than I am. It must be really funny for someone to come and see Revenge and see me drop the same amount of notes that I did in the early days of Joy Division and sing the same bum notes. It's like I haven't changed. To me, that was always part of our appeal. We appeared human. I'd hate to think that anyone would look at me and think they couldn't do it themselves.

"So, with Revenge, it's a new lease of energy. I'm like a vampire sucking on them lot. They're as energetic and enthusiastic as I was when I was 21. I look at them, recognise it and get carried away with it, swept along like. It's even made me more enthusiastic about New Order."

AT this juncture, Hook is apprehended by another queue of autograph-seekers, barely concealing their awe. The inevitable question stutters out.

"Er.. .are you leaving New Order then Hookey?"

"Look, just f*** off will ya!"

"It's really weird having to justify Revenge to New Order fans," he says later. "Like I'm deserting them or something. The number of times I've been asked why I'm doing this! Jesus! A lot of people seem to think New Order has ended. A lot of people assume that I've left the band. But I haven't.. .unless they're not telling me something. Ha! Ha!

"Basically though, Revenge has given me a freedom from the others. It never got to the point where it felt that I was tied to them. But, basically, I could only do what they wanted to do. Also, there comes a point where you take things for granted. You take the other members of the group for granted. We weren't exactly in a rut. That's too strong a word. But we'd got into a certain way of working. That's what is nice about Bernard doing Electronic, Stephen and Gillian doing the soundtrack work and me having Revenge. We've all got a different input."

Does he feel any sense of competitiveness with Electronic?

"Er... I suppose there's a bit of that. It would be ridiculous to deny it. It just comes down to different tastes. None of them have mentioned anything about Revenge. I don't even know if they've heard it. They've never expressed an opinion."

I venture that the chosen name for his new group might be seen as a not-too-subtle dig at his more regular colleagues.

"Ooh, you're a crafty c*** you are! You're coming in from the offside now. Look, people are trying to interpret the name because they're obsessed with this idea that I'm at war with the rest of New Order or something. Personally, I'm still trying to work out what Electronic means!"

But you do believe in the revenge ethic?

"Well, take 'Pineapple Face'..."

Oh yeah, who's that about then?

"Well, I wouldn't f***ing tell you, would I? I had someone in mind. It wasn't Noriega either There's a little personal jibe in there somewhere. But I'll be f***ed if I'm going to tell you who it's about."

Just between you, me, and the gatepost?

"Nah, f*** off! Look mate, you can only have revenge when you've lived with something and decided to get your own back. That's why I liked it as a name. See, I've had a lot of revenge in my life recently. Not your going out and punching someone in the mouth variety. More the mental kind. That's often the most satisfying kind."

Would Peter Hook like to elaborate on that point.

"F*** off!"

As Hook is getting ready for that night's show, he tantalises me one last time.

"Go on. Ask me one more question. The one you've always wanted to ask Peter Hook. Anything you like. Go on. The killer question."

Er...

"I'll tell you mate. Eight inches. Eight solid inches. Never let me down. Not once."

Meaty, beaty, big and bouncy.

Or something like that.

Revenge's single, "Pineapple Face's Big Day"is released through Factory on May 14. The album, "One True Passion" is scheduled for June.