1991 11 30 Factory NME

RENAISSANCE MANC

• FACTORY: aloof, elegant, misunderstood Mancunian home of Joy Division, New Order, Happy Mondays, possibly the coolest record label in the world - but there are worries about its health. With lavish retrospective ‘Palatine’ out soon, ANTHONY H WILSON - game show host, clever git, sexy businessman, man who didn’t sign The Smiths - entertains STUART MACONIE with his art of conversation and confirms that, apart from a ‘ripped scrotum’, Factory is alive and well. Factotum in focus: KEVIN CUMMINS

Granadaland - 6,000 square miles of multi-storey car parks, great football teams, breathtaking mountain scenery, cooling towers and the best in English beat music.

Charlton, Sugden, Curtis, Barlow, Ryder, Formby, Rutherford, Hook, Sidebottom, Fields, Lawton, Lofthouse, Laurel, Hanley, Shelley, Morrissey, Marr, Bragg (Melvyn not Billy) and The Bee Gees. The roll call rings down the ages.

And what has London given us ... Chas & Dave. Thanks.

I’m on the roof of the Factory Records building and, frankly, I’m getting a bit emotional. The wind chases a Manchester Evening News down the street. The canal crawls a sluggish brown 50 feet below. In the teeth of a gale, Anthony H Wilson sits clutching a framed picture of one Ian Curtis. “Of course, you know what they’ll say - ‘Tony Bloody Wilson. Still flogging Ian Curtis’... By the way, it’s not a canal, it’s a river."

Why is NME interviewing Tony Wilson? Think. Think hard. Here are a few reminders.

I) Because he has something to sell. On December 2, ‘Palatine’ a four-volume history of Factory Records, probably the world's coolest record label, is released. In typically idiosyncratic fashion, it tells the lurid, thrill-crazy story of good English working-class pop from punk to the present day.

2) Joy Division.

3) Because Factory Records, acting in consort with its peers Rough Trade, Beggars Banquet, Creation, Postcard, Mute, etc etc is what makes the pop music of these islands the best in the world. The independent culture, established in the wake of punk, is where the interesting things still happen. Except Cathy Dennis.

4) New Order.

5) The Gay Traitor Bar at the Hacienda.

6) Because he is one of the most important men in rock and he hosts an odd little TV contest for small businesses called Flying Start, Check TV Times for details.

7) Revenge, Electronic and The Other Two.

8) The Happy Mondays.

9) Because he is, amongst other things, a Nazi, a necrophiliac, a dilettante, a wanker, a Cambridge graduate, a game show host, a publican of sorts and the manager of Durutti Column.

10) Because at the end of the recent ‘Punk’ retrospective on Channel Four, a loose assemblage of live footage from various Wilson ventures of the era (So It Goes, What's On, Revolver), he said: “Thank you all for dancing with us,” and it was so crap and embarrassing, you wanted to hit him.

I I) Because unlike Tony Benn, who has shortened and proletarianized his name. Anthony H Wilson has done the opposite to distance himself from the man in the street - who is a c—.

12) Because Chapterhouse say: “When you think we’re looking down, we’re looking at girls squashed up at the front. We're cleavage gazing! Journalists think we’re being all fey and we’re really going ‘Phworr, check out those tits’!” Given the best education money can buy and the eager platform of the music press, that’s all Chapterhouse can think of to say. That's why I’m interviewing, Anthony H Wilson.

ANTHONY H Wilson enters the Factory Offices, all Graham Greene suave in a crumpled linen suit that probably cost a month’s wages, but not his. He looks great, though one is instantly reminded of those immortal words of The Farm -

“Nelson Mandela has spent 27 years in prison and when he got-out he was still better dressed than Tony Wilson," which is rich coming from a group of men in bobble hats.

The office gossip is all of that week’s ‘controversial’ NME interview with Happy Mondays, in which the boys reveal themselves to be all the things that got the middle class rock press so excited two years ago, except now Shaun and co are to be pilloried for it. Wilson is philosophical. “I think it’s great. As for the drugs... cocaine is the only drug I worry about - as long as they steer clear of that. You can be a junkie and have platinum albums every three years. And Shaun, for all that he is f—ed, is the greatest lyricist of his generation.

“Kinky Afro’ is one of the greatest songs ever about a father/ son relationship and 'I should have told you/That the things that you love start to own you' is an extraordinary line. Have you heard their version of ‘Staying Alive’? You’ll love it. It threw me at first. Then Derek Ryder said,‘You know your problem. Tone? You’re getting old’ ... and he's right. I love it now. It isn’t clever or groovy... it’s what it should be. Phil Spector on smack."

We’ve been talking for 90 seconds and already the conversation is more interesting than going on a drugs and weaponry holiday to Neptune with Moose and Slowdive forever. We head upstairs for the boardroom, a Ben Kelly-designed situationist art riot, where a pastel-coloured, sperm-shaped conference table hangs from the ceiling on chains and ideologically unsound mannequins double as coffee tables. The first question practically asks itself. Are Factory going bust or what? Anthony H Wilson smiles exasperatedly.

“No. We're doing fine, thank you. We’ve had a very tough summer during the recession but we’re pulling through, though you wouldn’t know it to read the music press. I’m OK now but two months ago I'd reached my 'get in the ring' phase with you people. You are so f—ing dumb. You are such f—ing cretins. But I’m still taken in by you all. And I expect sniping. It’s like Graham Taylor wondering why the papers are always having a go at him. Because you're the England manager, that’s why. So I expect you to snipe at me. Because we’re Factory."

Speaking as a cretin, what have we done to upset you?

"Look, we had a tough summer. Life got hard. I had to make people redundant and there’s nothing like that for reminding you that you’re in business. But we’ve survived. But you lot.. . you say ‘Madchester's over, something else is happening now'. .. and you believe it. You’re stupid. You didn't recognise the scene in 1989 and now you say it’s over. And what’s happening? ‘The scene that celebrates itself? I prefer ‘jingly jangly shite from the Home Counties' actually.

“I go down the Hacienda and my mouth drops open. It’s as wild as ever. And not just the Hacienda but some place in Altrincham, some place in Bredbury, some place in London even. And then I see the sales figures for these bands the music press like and I understand. Have you had K-Klass on your cover yet? No? Then as far as I'm concerned you should go out of f—ing business."

Well, it’s good but it’s not right, as Catchprase host Roy Walker might say. The logic is wonky here and there (the media were completely instrumental in the creation of the Madchester scene. Ask Marshall McLuhan) but this is entertaining stuff and he’s spot-on about one thing - K-Klass are better than Chapterhouse at everything, including billiards and making shadow dog faces with their hands. Back on the point, surely Anthony is flattered. We don’t sit debating the financial state of any old indie label. We're concerned. He grins.

“You’re not concerned. You’re taking the piss now and I know it. And rest assured, I enjoy our relationship. I enjoy spending my afternoons being asked silly questions by Stuart Maconie. But ten days ago, I figured out what was going on in young Britain and you should do the same. Instead you go on about (laughs) how every record Factory have put out this year is to stop us going bankrupt."

He’s bang on when he points out that we consistently waffle on about some scruff with a guitar over most other pop happenings but the reason is simple: rock music is about guitar bands. People in bedrooms tapping at Ataris and wearing their baseball caps on sideways don’t make great copy.

“Look. I like guitar bands. But look at a guitar band who have taken on board the new culture. Northside. I really smart about the way Northside have been treated. They're a great band and yet they got the backlash. You're all raving about Primal Scream, and I admit its a good album, but Northside are in very much the same area. A guitar group who have got out and been influenced by what's going on. You should pay attention to what's happening or you should get out of the way."

So can we expect a whole slew of fresh-faced Techno acts on Factory in the New Year?

"No," he asserts. "Because we've got the Mondays, we've got Northside, we've got New Order. We've got groups who are intimately involved in the culture. And 'Palatine' reflects that involvement with the culture via The Hacienda or whatever. As opposed to jingly-jangly shire from the Home Counties. And that's not regionalist. It's just that there aren't any shifty jingly-jangly bands in Manchester."

And so, feeling I know the answer already, I ask disingenuously, "Is 'Palatine' a rescue package for a beleagured company?" You'll never guess what he said:

"I don't think so. I mean, a hit would be nice. But getting our overseas licensing sorted out was more of a rescue package. `Palatine' is a product of the creative imagination of our accounts department– not in the sense of money but in that Andy in our accounts department suggested the name as a record of our years at Palatine Road and once we had a name, things fell together. But we always knew we'd do it.

Eleven years ago, when OMD went to Virgin. we made sure in the contract that we retained the rights for one more release of that material. We were thinking about this compilation then. But we wanted to make sure that we had a digestible compilation. That's why we decided on different chapters dealing with dance music, our Top 40 radio period of recent years, guitar bands. It was fun ... and we were underway with it well before the troubles of the summer.

"So I made a tape and then Phil Sachs (Factory A&R) and Rob Gretton had a go at it. (Adopts Lancastrian burr) 'The committee' came to few decisions. I had 'The Beat Groups' album starting with The Distractions but Phil, rightly, felt it should begin with Joy Division. And, as Gretton says, it's not an academic anthology. It's four great albums. In fact, it could have been five. There's an album of eccentricities and stuff, great stuff like Kevin Hewick and Crawling Chaos, that just wouldn't fit."

As an artefact, it's impressive. Like most Factory product, it has a certain patina of glacial style. If
Factory's musical output wasn't so implausibly good, the history of the label would be the ultimate triumph of packaging over content.

"Well, of course, we've had that. We've had three backlashes which coincide with three dull periods in our history; the most recent being from 'Loose Fit' to 'Feel Every Beat'. 'Loose Fit' wasn't as good as it should have been, 'Take Five' caught the backlash and Cath (Carroll) had it tough. And we've been previously declared dead in '82 and '86.

"We've been accused of being middle-class, coffee table packagers for years. All it is is a bizarre respect for the punter. The stuff should look nice. I was very disappointed when l saw the CD booklet that went out with the Mondays' live album because it's really minimal and naff."

But does it amuse or delight you that the word 'Factory' has passed into the language of rock debate as an adjective? You can describe a group or a sleeve or a marketing tactic as 'very Factory'. Another wry chuckle.

"No, because you pricks always get it wrong. It probably still means 'doom and gloom'."

No it doesn't. It means ... aloof and elegant.

"Aloof and elegant, eh? Well, that sounds alright to me. But what about the Happy Mondays? We're not so aloof, I enjoy the British music industry. I'm looking forward to The Adventure Babies' campaign. But I imagine we will always be misunderstood. It's unintentional. We always cause trouble. Like at the New Music Seminar.

`Things happen to us. Gretton suggested the name New Order because it fitted perfectly but, of course, you all reckoned we were Nazis. And I remember about three months after Ian had died, there had been some dreadful piece in the papers. And Hooky grinned and walked into the rehearsal room saying, 'the myth grows stronger!'"

One of Factory's strengths of course is that, despite being the home of some of the best British rock music ever, they have never appeared to be a rock label. They've avoided the garish colours, bad smells, poor dress sense and inane babble of the rock culture. Haven't they?

"I don't know. Are we 'rock'? At New Order's first gig in New York, Hannet sat backstage snarling sarcastically `no riders!' 'Cos he was very rock 'n' roll and couldn't understand why there wasn't a drink. Bernard uses the phrase `R and R'. 'A bit Rand R, that'. But actually I think my groups are very rock 'n' roll. Although if I saw one of them throwing bread rolls in a restaurant I'd be dreadfully upset. I never like it when I see employees of Granada Television throwing food in restaurants.

"You described us as somewhere between yobbishness and intellectualism and I think that's right. We are both. We specialise in winding people up. I spend half my life explaining and apologising for Rob Gretton. He is the ultimate Mancunian. And I think this is the thing with Factory. We are very Mancunian. That's what makes us so special."

Anthony is animated when I put it to him that Factory are the coolest record label in the world.

"Ah, cool. This all stems from Norman Mailer's great essay on the hipster. I think 'cool' is a great creation. Cool's lovely. I'm not sure if we are but if you say we are then I'm extremely flattered. But, you see, at the time we began, the really cool, arty independent label was Fast Product. Bob Last would send out little plastic bags with samples of dried potato in them. Now that's arty.

Alan Horne of Postcard Records said that he wanted his label to be 'a punk version of the Chic organisation'. What was your manifesto?

"I didn't have one. I didn't have a neat one-liner like that. All I've ever talked about is praxis (opposite of theory in Marxist intellectual circles – Really Clever Ed). Praxis, as outlined by Fidel Castro, who's a bit unfashionable now. My philosophy is contained on FAC 30, which is the Vermorels' interview with the Sex Pistols where Sid is asked if he sings for the man in the street. 'No', says Sid. 'I've met the man in the street and he's a c—'.

"I'm very keen on that line. That sums us up. With hindsight it was very clever to have flashy sleeves, it was very clever to open a nightclub. But we had no theory. We did it because we wanted to. The best definition I can offer comes from my student days when we had taken over the students' union and some anarchist sat in the chair and said: 'Comrades, we have taken over the Cambridge Students' Union. We have all night to work out why we did it.' Factory do things and then we work out what it means."

Anthony is wearing a nice suit. We're sitting at a very nice conference table in a very nice neo-brutalist boardroom. How sexy does he find the business end of it all?

"Generally, very sexy. But after this recession, after making people redundant . . . well, I feel like the man who took the National Guard to court for the Kent State shootings. After seven years, the Guard were acquitted and when the guy was asked how he felt he said, 'Life's a dry f—'. Business can be very sexy but it can be a dry f—, 'a ripped scrotum."

AS FACTORY moved into the 90s, it started a classical label. This was a very Factory thing to do.
Having moved through several phases, the label has now found its identity as a home for radical British talent a la Steve Martland, Rolf Hind, Graham Fitkin etc. Groovy. . . but haven't Factory always been a classical label? He looks pleased.

"Well, if I understand you right, yes. In my opinion of popular art, which is that it's as valid as any other artform, yes. A lot of the tracks on 'Palatine' are phenomenal art. I think `Transmission' is a classical record. It has timeless power. But I'm a bit embarrassed by your question. Maybe we should be more ephemeral. Great art can be ephemeral. Except it turns out to last. We're 35 years into pop now. And great records do not lose their power. The deference with which we treat this stuff is deserved."

Wilson has already mentioned Castro and Praxis. Soon, he will mention James Joyce and the Florentine renaissance. He's dead brainy, kids ... so isn't he in the wrong line of work? He looks faintly appalled.

"You mean hanging around with musicians? No! I'm privileged to know these cretins, if that's what they are. I am, at heart, a journalist and not a very good one. I'm in awe of creative people. I'm honoured to have known Ian Curtis and Shaun Ryder, these strange, remarkable people. They're difficult but I'm amazed by them. Even when things get hard, I enjoy it so much.

"Working on So It Goes in '76, I met McLaren and Costello and Bernie Rhodes and John Lydon ... and as a fan I thought, this is fantastic. It came to a head in '77 when I'd put out an lggy show and I was hauled in and told, `If we see one more guy with a horse's tail coming out of his arse on this station, you're fired.'

"So the answer is, I love this business. I love meeting these wheeler-dealers who tell me about sending out 'buying teams' and bribing people with Mediterranean holidays. I love that side of things.

"And musicians, who can be the most difficult and cretinous ... I love 'em. Look at Paul Davis (Mondays keyboard player), he symbolises it all. Do you know they test the new drugs on him to see if there's a bad reaction? He went into a bar in Swinton when he was 15 and said, 'Little Hulton is f—ing great' and got battered. The Mondays reckon he left a bit of brain in the pub. Well, I love him. I'm proud to know him."

What's the worst thing Factory have ever put out?

"The worst? Well (laughs) there's a lot. Putting together `Palatine' I realised just how much garbage there is! But none of it got on there. Everything on there matters."

He notices my sceptical look.

"You can say there's some Joy Division copyists in the early days and ... well, maybe I have a slight problem with The Wake ... but the guy had a good voice. And listen to 'All-Night Party' (ACR) – hat's a fantastic record that owes nothing to Joy Division. My problem then was that in Simon Topping I had the best singer in Britain who didn't want to sing and Vini Reilly, the best guitarist in Britain, who couldn't sing but was determined to! It was a total f— up."

I ask Anthony who he would have liked on the label and he says no-one that he didn't have. Absolutely. But I don't believe him so I mention The Smiths. He smiles.

"No. I couldn't have worked with Steven. I like him too much. And you can't change the course of history. And The Smiths and New Order on the same label ... it would have been unimaginable. Besides, as Rob Gretton says, the Smiths' demos were shit.

"I would have liked James and The Distractions to have stayed. In I 986, when the Railway Children left, I remember being very jealous of Daniel (Miller) because it seemed that Mute always had two major acts. And, at this point, we thought that having contracts might be a good idea.

"But my friend Mr Ryder thinks that's a load of crap. 'We'll never leave you, Tone. We love yer.' But I am crap. In 1980, Morrissey told me he was going to be a pop star and I said, 'Steven, write your
novel'. I was very dumb that afternoon. I thought there was no way he'd make a pop star."

Even though you're crap, do you revel in your own importance?

"That's a question about my ego. Am I an egomaniac? i dunno. 'Look at him shooting his mouth off again!' But it's my job. I'm promoting `Palatine'. Importance? Well, I'm proud of what we've done. I'm not proud of this building. It embarrasses me to have this flashy building and have to make people redundant. If I was a great businessman, we wouldn't have had such a tough year.

"I'm egotistical about my So It Goes/What's On period (two seminal Granada TV shows of the late '70s). I put 42 bands on TV and I was right about every one of them. And there were 327 groups not on . and I was right about all them as well! And be on top form again when Northside are a monstrous group. If not, I'm an idiot. But we'll see."

Well, you never know.

"No, you don't. It's what Joyce called 'the ineluctable modality of life'. At the time of 'Truth Faith"s success, I wondered what would happen next and how we would be involved ... and it turned out that it happened in the Hacienda and it involved this wacky group from Little Hulton that we'd signed four years earlier. This summer was tough ... but here I am now, grinning about 'Judge Fudge'."

What's Factory's relationship with Manchester? Paternalistic? Vampiric?

"Journalistic. We report what happens. And if I tend to use the words 'Factory' and 'Manchester' interchangeably, I shouldn't. From a Manchester angle, I am very proud of Simply Red and 808 State and The Bee Gees. You think Factory has an attitude? No-one has an attitude like Mark E Smith. There's him and there's everybody else in Manchester. That's it. I'm not a Machievellian genius like McLaren. I just follow."

If I got the bus now to my mum and dad's house, who've never heard of Ian Curtis, they'd be very pleased to know that I'd been talking to that bloke from Granada Reports and Flying Start. Does that amuse you?

"Oh yes, the irony of the two jobs amuses me. Mr Branson said I'd never be good at either 'til I'd made my mind up which I wanted to do. Perhaps he's right. But I like the intimacy of regional celebrity. I like the 'Wilson is a wanker' thing. This morning I was at a meeting in Salford and I heard that someone was having a go at my car so I went out and these scallies were running off over the waste ground going, `Nearly had it then, Tone. Nearly had it then'."

Wanker, crap businessman, egomaniac, most important man in rock. You're a bit of a renaissance man, aren't you?

"No. A renaissance man in Florentine terms is someone who understands science and art. I just do pop music and telly."

Nearly had you there, Tone. Nearly had you there.