1983 12 New Order Rorschach Testing

NEW ORDER CLEANING UP

A COMPLETELY disastrous day had seen me hurtling along the south 'A' roads in a bid to get to TVS studios in Southampton less than four hours later than arranged. I was so pissed off with my directional failings that my speed leaving the motorway nearly had my hired car hitching a lift on (and I kid you not) Gary Numan's Porsche. Things were not improving it seemed. On arriving, all four members are on the temporary shifting boredom and weight from foot to foot. Gillian and Steve, on raised platforms at the back are whispering and Barney and Hooky, who’ve noticed the intense importance of image here by dressing in their Sunday best white T-shirts and faded jeans arc looking around for anything but anything that will provide a laff.

A floor manager or ten, like pilots without planes are beginning to scurry around the hangar-like studio in a bid to get things moving. New Order are here doing one song, ‘Thieves Like Us', and one song only. It starts and stops about three times whilst everything that should be issuing sound is seen to be and as the bands usual live soundcrew are mixing the monitor sound things arc looking good. There's a constant flow of one-liners keeping both parties amused which makes for a humorous time.

Lyrically 'Thieves Like Us' hasn't been altered much from its only other outing to date at the Hacienda back in July but Barney's voice is sounding a wee bit fragile from his stage monitor as various takes are set in motion and then once again halted.

The prog called 'DJ' and featuring Kid Jensen is to be aired in December and the said DJ makes a brief appearance along with co-presenter Tracey (the part-time Style Councillor) who swans about like a self contained Martini ad on parole.

The advantage of getting Oz at the controls is self explanatory in the control room afterwards as the finished article is shown, highlighting the best sound New Order have had off TV to date.

The Fun Factory Frolics 

There's a bass player, three roadies and a manager who’s still recovering from his guest appearance in International Musician at the canteen table and things are ... er... chaotic. Hooky's first comment of “Why do you want to interview us? You know us" sums up the problem.

Rob Gretton has taken on the task of prompting the questions from my notes and a mention of working titles has Hooky in reflective mood.

"I would have gone for ‘Tiny Tim’ (Doubts Even Here) but he (Gretton) didn't like it. " An Xmas Factory release is another Video compilation and another talking point . . .

"Factory Outing Live at the Hacienda featuring Factory bands with a track by our goodselves" — there’s an echo as Hooky repeats Grctton’s very words to a tec. On the subject of the Hacienda Hooky's vocal prowess swings into it's best Butlin's promotion guise . . .

"I think it’s wonderful. I advise anyone to go there. I think it’s a grand night out if you're planning your Xmas Party. ’’ Tony Wilson defending the Factory ethic on Loose Talk . ..

Hooky: ‘I thought he should have been more aggressive instead of having that time delay on his aggression. I just thought he didn’t pull it off very well and he could have been belter than that. It’s not the Tony Wilson I know, he’s got an answer for everything —five out of ten. ”

The Confusion Video. Did you put any ideas into it?

Hooky: "No — I don‘t think we did. did we? We were busy and out that day (nice one!)"

What we all actually thought of it has a barrage of quick fire across the table . . . 

R.T.: "It's crap!"

Hooky: "No it’s not. it’s greeeat!" 

Gretton: "Right, end of interview." He turns to Terry (road manager and part-time scrambler) "What did you think of it Terry?"

Terry: "I wasn’t on it."

Hooky (to me): "He doesn’t like it. He wasn’t on it."

Gretton: "I was on it!"

Terry: "I haven’t been on a video for DAYS"

Asking Hooky if he's happy with the way things are going brings a suitably throwaway reply.

"I suppose so, money has that effect on me."

The jovial nature of these wacky devils continues two days laer when Barney and R.T. manage to steal an hour of quiet conversation in New Orders hotel. The locations for this conflab, the interviewee that is, are in an armchair, on a loo, in a bath and behind a razor. He finds writing a million pound generator of a single easier than getting into his room, making his shaver work or keeping his bath at the right temp but he's Bernard Sumner and he's alright! Rob Gretton has been safely locked in his room and Hooky is busy scaring the Bournemouth old folk during a half hour jog — what is known as searching for the perfect beat.

Barney does a quick mic check and pointing at the machine 

"Wouldn’t mind getting one of those. Do you want to buy me one for Christmas? (Regarding the Testing Characters form he had) I’ll put it down as my most treasured possession."

R.T. “What have you been up to during the summer?”

"Well, we went to America for a month... last year we went all over the world. We went to Australia, New Zealand, Finland, Sweden, Scotland, Ireland (Editors note: hello Tricia, Mary, Jim and Tom Curtis and Brigit Doyle), America twice . . . probably somewhere else I can't remember. We did all that right, then we came back from America, June I think it was, and we all had a holiday, I went to Italy which was relaxing. Then we came back, Steve and Gillian were producing a group called Thick Pigeon (there’s a private joke here judging by his reaction) who are from New York. I was producing Section 25’s new LP which will be out pretty soon and also Foreign Press who are on EMI. "

The choice of EMI . . .

“ What we did first was a demo. Well not a demo but recorded off their own money. Then they issued the tapes out to various record companies and got some offers. One of them was EMI and they took that. They’ve also got a deal with the guy who manages Japan, Napier Bell (you know the bloke — he of the dragging people through the mud/the dead don’t talk biography). They didn't go with Factory because they wanted to go with a major and try it that way. I basically did that because we’d known them since Joy Division days and they still have the enthusiasm — after seven years. They’ve stuck together and they still practice together. Hooky's been working with a band called Niam Niam(?) who’ve split up now I think. (There’s a moral here somewhere). Well they might have split up. He did some studio work with them.

"Then WE started rehearsing. We put a P. A. in our rehearsal room so we could hear the vocals for once (he smirks). W'e used to use. like one really shit speaker for vocals. We never concentrated on vocals but we probably will do a bit more now because. .. you can actually here them!

R.T. “Was that a reason for early New Order vocals being way down the mix?” 

"No, I was just shit at singing. ’’

R.T. “The production you enjoy doing yourselves.”

"Well we find we get the best results doing it ourselves. ’’

In a live situation Oz becomes the fifth man controlling the desk, would that not transfer to a studio?

"It’s very different in the studio. I mean, Ozzie could do it perfectly well but we enjoy doing it ourselves. It’s more personal if you like and we know exactly what we want. We’re always learning though. "

R.T. “Could you look back on . . . say ‘Temptation’ and think ‘we'd do that different now'.”

"Well ‘Temptation’ would be better now because we’ve got better equipment. ‘Temptation’ was done with electronics that were made from a kit but now the equipment’s better. We do it at Britannia Row because we really like it there. . . it's nice for the group to be isolated and it keeps your mind on the job in hand.”

Arthur Baker's computerised handiwork...

"'Thieves Like Us' we'd written some synths and some drums for but only a little. Since then we've changed it a hell of a lot and added to it."

We mention the ‘DJ’ program me again. 

R.T. “It sounded great off the TV.”

"Yeah. It's our best TV sound so far and it's really difficult to mix that because there's so much going on, so it sounded good... a bit like Granada!” (a sarcastic reference to 'Celebration' a Granada TV arts prog. New Order did in '81), their official TV debut where the intention of using Chris Nagle at the controls was poleaxed by union rules and 'jobsworth' altitudes. Rob Gretton nearly had the band off for an early bath.

R.T. “The music rags gave the impression that Baker wanted to impose a bit too much Baker in a financial as well as artistic sense.”

"No ... we got on with him really well."

R.T. "Do you listen to a lot of the stuff he’s producing ‘Planet Patrol' etc? Is that the reason you used him?”

“Yeah, 'Soul Sonic Force’. We first got into him when he did that rip off of 'Trans-Europe Express'. He'd done it and hadn’t told Kraftwerk — he just did it. So Kraftwerk sued him, then he just pul up the price of his records by about 10p and paid the fine! I thought ‘what a fucking gall’. So that got us interested in him. It was interesting because up until then disco producers were very conservative — they’d do unconservative mixes but for someone to take 'Trans-Europe Express’ and I’d always liked that track . . . for someone to take it. . . ”

R.T. “It’s sacrilege?"

“But to me it's NOT sacrilege. It's like the Divine thing and 'Blue Monday’. That’s not sacrilege. It’s interesting to see somebody else do it. I don’t care if the bloke in the local British legion gets up and sings ‘Blue Monday’. It's only like bootlegs isn’t it? We know bootlegs go on. We could track them down but we don’t. All the same thing in my eyes anyway. ”

The use of the Brideshead director for the ‘Confusion’ Video . . .

"Well when he was making Brideshead he used to stay with Alan Erasmus (one of Factory’s directors) and he also knew Tony (Wilson) because Brideshead was made by Granada. So Tony suggested him and we thought it would be a good idea. "

A Channel 4 documentary hitting the TV screens presently . . .

"Yes, sometime in December... and it’s December now! I psychically feel it’ll be about the 18th (roughly the print date of this magazine). We did some of the concert at the Hacienda and live, the group, interviewed a lot of people that are on Factory to get their opinions of it, as well as those who weren’t on Factory. The whole thing is an hour long. Prime time . . . twelve o 'clock midnight, prime time!"

The mechanics of writing are brought up.

"Everybody in the band writes. They don’t contribute necessarily in the way of coming up with a riff, they contribute bypassing comments on what they’ve come up with. So it’s hard to define who does what.”

One of the few examples of strong influence is Steve’s writing of ‘Procession’.

“The lyrics, yeah. The way we write lyrics now is I do about 60% of it. I can't be asked to sit down and write lyrics so we jam them on stage and if they turn out good we keep them and throw the rest away. So what we tend to end up with is three quarters of a song which we go into a studio with. We have the lyrics we've got from videos and tapes and we write them down crossing out the rubbish. Everyone fills the gaps. It’s a good way ’cos it feels natural, not contrived. To sit down at home and say 'Right-I-am-going-to-write-some-lyrics. - What-shall-I-write-them-about?’ just doesn't feel right to me. Sometimes it does but rarely. 'Temptation' and ‘Blue Monday' are exceptions. ”

R.T. “How much new stuff is in the works?”

“We’ve got about another four or five songs on tape at the rehearsal room but basically they’re drum rhythms. That one we played last night (Brixton — untitled) we’ve got everything for except a vocal line. That’ll be a good one that, I can tell. . . when we can fucking play it! (moans). ” 

On the progression and gathering strength of his vocals and the way they used to be nearly apologizing for being there . . .

“That was because I couldn't sing or sing loud enough and I didn’t know HOW to sing. When you're on stage it’s very loud and I couldn’t get the volume out of my voice. I didn’t know how to do it. Now I do think I know a bit more. The way I sing now is very different anyway. It was like talking then. It’s easier to project now and I enjoy it much more. I really enjoy singing now. . . since 'Temptation' — it started there. ’’ 

New Order in the rat race . . .!

“Well, we're supposed to start at twelve but we get there about one o’clock. Well I get there at twelve. All the others are usually late. We go on until about nine or ten thirty three days a week. We spend a lot of that lime repairing the equipment . . . and talking. ”

Hypothetical but intriguing is what Ian would make of what New Order arc doing now. Is it something he would have been into?

“If He was alive now I think he would, actually. Obviously if he was alive, the lyrics would be different but synthesizers and sequencers he liked. He was into Kraftwerk and Giorgio Moroder and all that stuff. I mean, we played in 1977/78 at a club in Manchester and he took a record to play. The club was just playing straight ahead punk. Ian took 'Trans-Europe Express" (encore) to play and at first they didn't want to put it on. When they did they liked it — and that was going against the grain at the time. It was even going against what WE were doing. It was just a good track. ’’

On the six year partnership and its smooth running . . .

R.T.: "Ever had arguments where things were serious like ’Christ this is bad!’?”

“Er . . . they’ve cropped up but very rarely and it’s sorted itself out. If you’re with someone and you don’t argue then there's something wrong. Like a yes yes relationship. ”

R.T.: “Can you imagine still playing together at 40, maybe on the chicken in the basket nightclub circuit?"

“It's a horrible thought but probably quite a laff!"

R.T.: "The press and interviewers you used to avoid but do now, happily. Do you read the papers?”

No I don’t unless someone else buys a copy and I've got nothing else to do. I used to in the punk days, buy it and read it avidly and believe everything I read. ”

R.T. "What about the press concerning you.”

“Now I don 't because I know that a lot of what they say isn't true, unfortunately. " 

R.T. “Docs this harp back to the days and problems of misconstrued interviews of your very selves?”

“Yes it does, yeah. A lot of it is indoctrination. They just dig shit up and try to promote it instead of letting people choose themselves. People are stupid and can't choose their own minds unfortunately. I hate to say it but it's true. Things like 'Powerpop'. Do you remember THAT! I'm sure if you got a few back issues of Sounds and NME and found out what reporters wrote about Powerpop there'd be a few red faces. I believe in a wide cross section of music — nothing's in or out. ”

R.T. "Do you see the hipness that New Order tend to generate?”

“Well... we don't intend it to be. We just do what we like. I don't care if it's cool to be hip. Like miming — I don't like miming but if someone else wants to do it —fine. I’m not preaching and I wouldn't want anyone to do things our way. ’’

FAC — 1 liner "Why bring out today what you can bring out tomorrow.”

“We usually go to Peter Savile (the villain in this scenario) and say 'We’re thinking of recording a single next month' and he’ll say 'Right, I’ll get working on it straight away!’ (stifled laughter). Then we record the single and come back to him and say 'Peter, we’ve recorded that single. Have you done the sleeve?’ and he’ll go 'No, but I’m working on it!’ Then we come back a month later and say ‘Where’s the sleeve Pete?' and he’ll go 'I’ve got the idea. I’ve got the idea! How about this?’ We either like it or come up with something else. 'Unknown Pleasures' and 'Atmosphere' we came up with the photographs. So that again is a collaboration."

R.T.: “I used to think he held you up something terrible."

“He DOES hold us up something terrible. He held up the last LP and single but 'Confusion’ was ready and waiting to make up for it and I think ‘Confusion ’ was a wonderful sleeve. I really like that sleeve. In fact I’m thinking of framing it and using it as a picture. I didn't like ‘Blue Monday’ though. ”

The Confusion Video . . .

“It was quickly rushed but that was all we wanted it to be. I like it. I like the colours in it and the way it makes us out to be super heroes (sniggers). No, I’m only joking. It's just something to watch, no great meaning behind it. ’’

Reasons for re-issuing ‘Love Will Tear Us Apart'?

He clicks his fingers “Money baby, we need it bad! We've all got bad coke habits since we came back from LA so we need the money to feed our noses (a suitable reply to various press comments). Seriously, loads of back orders built up, people wanted it. So we had a choice of selling it to them or not. As they wanted it we sold it to them. Some people said we're cashing in which really fucking annoys me. We're not preaching our own wonderfulness but all you have to do is look at what we've done in the past and believe in us. We've not cashed in on anything. We're not that type of people."

R.T.: “Steve Luscombe from Blancmange reviewed it in Melody Maker.”

“That guy is a ****! You can print that."

R.T.: “Did you read it?”

"No, but Rob told me about it. That guy is a stupid ****! The press release he quoted from WAS sent out with it but we didn't know that it was somebody at Rough Trade that did that. He slagged it off apparently because it said 'This is the most important record to come out this century' — something like that."

R.T.: “Was the happening of just two gigs in the last four months a direct result of "Blue Monday' going completely haywire in the charts?”

"No, we were writing stuff and to my mind there's no point in playing gigs if you're not doing anything different. It seems boring and pointless. It's a bit like that situation now because the new songs we've written aren't finished and we attempted to play one last night and I don't know if you noticed but it was fucking awful! It was just fucking naff!"

R.T.: “You've always had a habit of taking songs for walks before they can crawl, so to speak?”

"If you've got a big sequencer line it's easy. You get the sequencer to do it. You just bung (laughs) a bit of shit on top of it but with THAT song there's no sequencer. It's all played manually and we'd... er... lost our immunity to alcohol.

"After a few gigs you get used to alcohol and last night one drink and we were fucking gone. So a combination of the two resulted in a load of old shit really if you ask me (he's still smiling).

R.T. “Tour wise, you’re not into them?” 

"No".

R.T. “Whatabout thousands of people wanting to see you and here you are doing just two gigs?”

"Well actually, I wouldn't mind playing England more. Fed up going round the world. It just seems daft. I think this year coming we should play in England more personally."

The same question befitted Cabaret Voltaire.

R.T.: “You’d never do the Odeon tours?” 

"No never... I don't think I'd do ONE Odeon or Apollo. I remember we played the Apollo in Manchester. The Apollo in Glasgow wasn't bad because there's a massive twenty foot drop at the end of the stage and it makes it quite exciting but the one in Manchester — it's like playing to a black curtain. You can't see the audience or anything. You can't hear them shouting 'Cunt! Get off you're shit (laughing again)."

R.T. “Gigs wise then is there a lack of challenge and bite. Last night — five thousand coverted fans?”

"Whether they're fans or not, if you played shit I think they'd realise it. 

Pernod and blackcurrant. . .

"I don't think I've ever been on sober but I've got to the point where I appear sober... I think. I don't drink as much. I used to take these sleeping tablets so when I drank with them they made my sense of balance go and I'd fall over. Basically I wanted a bit of extremity."

I ask if there’s anything he gets out of the charts and ... he gets out of the bath.

"I'll tell you what I do like that was in the charts . . . that last Soft Cell single. 

Their own single (aforementioned Thieves Like Us’) ...

"Well we go into the studio in mid-December so it'll be out in January/ February (make a note of where you heard the INTENTION first)."

If it lead balloons . . .?

"We'll just carry on."

Longevity through happiness . . .

"We're as happy now as we've ever been."