New Order interview (source unknown)

OUT OF ORDER 

"Are you full of shit then?"
The initial telephone contact with New Order finds their manager Rob Gretton in playful mood. Mr Gretton’s perhaps justifiable presumption that all music journalists are full of faeces is merely the un-polished tip of an iceberg of attitudes which inform both New Order and their record label Factory.

However, when as in the case of New Order, the alternative to mass marketing seems to be virtual silence you begin to wonder what the point of it is. In 1984 New Order's recorded output consisted of three songs - the single 'Thieves Like Us' with it's B-side 'Lonesome Tonight' and an import version of 'Murder'. Overkill is not one of New Order's problems.

So when the day of the 'interview' proper arrives it seems that the issues of promotion and participation should be the Order of the day. However, on arriving at the Islington recording studios where the band are working on their third LP, there are a number of preliminaries to be observed. Bernie Albrecht has to make a phone call. Gillian has to do a little more knitting. Rob Gretton and others have to pursue an old hippy method of relaxation. Peter Hook decides not to join in with the interview. Rob Gretton has to eat a cream bun. Over enthusiasm is not one of New Order problems. Bernie explains:

"We don't regard what we do as work. We've given up working. You see that's just the point. If it became like work we wouldn't do it. What we do is for pleasure and if it happens to give other people pleasure as well then that's fine."

Subverting the work ethic or justifying laziness? It's always been difficult to tell with New Order whether their 'unconcerned attitude represents insubordination or just indifference. The words of the band suggest the latter. While Factory and Rob Gretton speak the 'politics'.

Gretton's slurred Northern intonation dominates the interview as he vigorously waves the flag for early punk ideals. Meanwhile Gillian carries on with her knitting.

Rob Gretton: "We don't promote ourselves in the same way as every other band because we don't need to. We are successful, and because we don't work in that way it proves that you don't have to. It makes the rest of them look idiots. It offers an 'alternative' as they say."

Given that the band seem determined to eschew the customs of conspicuous commerciality I suggest that the three quarters of a million plus sales of 'Blue Monday' could have been an embarrassment.

Gretton: "No, that's a load of bollocks. It should have been even bigger. Of course we weren't embarrassed, it was a brilliant song and that's why it sold - nothing to do with hype or anything. It sold on the merit of the song and it should have sold more."

Stephen Morris: "Just having a 12-inch version wasn't a gimmick. Part of its strength is in the arrangement and to cut it down would destroy that arrangement. It was successful simply because it was a really good record. We knew it from the start. Plus a lot of it is just luck."

Bernie: "You see we want to be successful, we want to be really massive  the biggest band ever, But there are certain things that we won't do to achieve that success - that's all."

As conscientious objectors to the media promotion bonanza of the music business New Order have consistently avoided the usual superficial back-slapping relationship with the press. The consequences of this abstemiousness have not however always been in their favour. Surprisingly they claim that myth representation abounds. 

Bernie: "We've never made it particularly easy for the press to talk to us - largely because they don't have anything worth saying, their opinions don't matter. So over the years they've constructed their own image, and that's the one people cling to."

Steve: "The misrepresentations say more about the people who are supposed to be representing you than they do about you. Unfortunately, people who don't know you assume that it's true, like the image that we've been given of playing 'depressing' music which is just to do with our history and what happened with Ian (Curtis). It's not applicable now. It's just one rather odd side-effect of this business - having to answer millions of questions. It's about ten really, but you answer them a million times."

Ten questions is of course a considerable over estimation. There are only two crucial questions - 'How much money do you make?' and 'Where do you keep your wallet?' For the moment, neither of these arise. What does arise is the unavoidable fact of New Order's colossal ennui with interviews, hyperbole, business machinations and the like. Whether their refusal to smile for the camera is a privileged asceticism which they can only afford because of their fortunate anti-consumerist principle is impossible to discern. Rob Gretton talks mountains of vaguely socialist justification. The band, however, seem not to care greatly. Bernie suggests that Gretton should be brought a gag for Christmas. Later on the singer-guitarist, who appears to have a fondness for micro-chip toys, produces an electronic executive decision taker. He proceeds to interview the machine about New Order.

Bernie: "Are we a bunch of Facist madmen?"

Decision Taker: "Yes definitely."

Bernie: "Are we the future of modern music?"

Decision Taker: "Try again later."

Meanwhile Gillian carried on with her knitting - perhaps a wooly cover for her synthesiser. The band seem a little unconcerned about presenting a serious face to the press. The suggestion that their indifference to the usual clamouring for success is reflected in sloppy live performances is met with considerable mirth. However, once the laughter subsides Bernie is moved to defend their musicianship.

Bernie: "We like to try out new songs in the set. Sometimes they're not even completely finished when we play them - in fact we just make it up as we go along. No, really it’s just that we don't want to have that over-slick, over-polished stage show that most bands have. I mean normally when a group tours they spend months in a rehearsal studio playing the set over and over again until it’s perfect. We don't want that - it loses so much. We try and make each performance a bit different. We've never claimed to be brilliant musicians anyway. I’m not interested in perfect playing.”

On their records, as well as live, New Order seem less interested in perfection than in making sure that the product is all their own work. Having moved on from their Joy Division era producer — Martin Hannett and collaborated with Arthur Baker on 'Thieves Like Us’ they now prefer to produce themselves. They don't need Trevor Horn to come up with another 'Blue Monday’.

Bernie: "No he wears glasses ... it would depend on how much he weighed at the time. No, Trevor Horn seems to spend a long time doing everything and we don’t. His is the perfectionist approach - a moment in time caught forever. It depends on how much control he’d want as well - even when we had Martin Hannett we were always moaning. When we'd write a song it should sound the way we wrote it. Martin would change the character of the song completely which is why we fell out.”

The character of the new LP is not something that the band is prepared to discuss in any detail. It will be the same but different. There is no title for it yet. There will be happiness and heartache, songs and dances. There will be a single ‘The Perfect Kiss'.

Their reluctance to dissect and rationalise is to be respected. They don't claim to be prophets or great artists, just four sometimes pleasant, mostly unremarkable people. They don't even offer up exotic lifestyles.

Bernie: "Pop music today is more important than religion. For a lot of people it has replaced religion because it's the one area of young people's lives where they touch on something spiritual - and good pop music has that element in it. I think our music does."

Few people who are familiar with 'Movement', or 'Power, Corruption and Lies' would agree. Not without relief I leave New Order to discuss which nightclub they’ll head for tonight.

Some time after the interview Mr Gretton is on the phone languidly supplying an update on the band. There'll be some dates in Japan and Hong Kong and a distribution deal with a major American company. This time he doesn't inquire whether his listener is full of shit. Perhaps he thinks it's all been kicked out by the New Order interview technique. Not a hope. There's always new ordure to be found. The Perfect Kiss-Off. 

Words: Roger Morton

Photography: Kevin Cummins