Peter Saville Interview (source unknown)

PERFECT STYLISTIC ATTITUDE

Any fan of the following bands, will also be familiar with the work of the designer Peter Saville: Joy Division, New Order, Ultravox, Orchestral Manoeuvres. Since 1978 he's become one of the best known, and probably the best respected, record sleeve designers available.

Why in the early days with Factory did you decide to work in the style of constructivism with bands such as Joy Division, Section 25, OMD, New Order etc?

Well, that's a rather wooly question. The first work I ever did for Factory was a poster (FAC1) on which the Factory sample was also based. It was certainly constructivist in style, though the sleeve for OMD's 'Electricity' was more neo-classical. I was twenty-two and in my last weeks at college, and becoming aware of the great tradition of Twentieth century graphics, as well as certain schools such as the Russian constructivists, the Bauhaus and Die Stiljl. I was really into Jan Tschishold and Die Neue Typographic of the 1930s, which was exclusively typography and graphics and reflected the mood of the time. Thus my first studies were reflected in the sleeves - my first record.

Did this relate directly to their/ Factory's music, or were you working to a set brief?

I was looking for work other than college things, and was jealous of Malcolm Garrett working on Buzzcock's covers. I approached Tony Wilson on hearing of the Factory club in Manchester and showed him my Tschishold book. He liked the idea. I hadn't heard of any of the tracks on Factory Sample before I did the cover, and the only one that really moved me was 'Digital ’ by Joy Division. I was working to convey not the music but the mood, the sense of a new movement. The first Factory record I liked was 'Electricity', because of OMD's name and because I'd always liked Kraftwerk etc. For 'Unknown Pleasures' I was given an image by Joy Division, but on hearing the first thirty seconds I was stunned. It was obviously a very important record.

How important is it for Factory to have very complex sleeves, and why should they? In the past Tony Wilson has simplified it to a penchant for ’nice sleeves' - surely not true?

To give the customer something different, with no concern for expense or selling the music on the strength of it.

Why are you doing fewer sleeves for them now?

I'm doing less for everyone, as I don't like doing record sleeves anymore. My original intention was to set up a design company proper, but Tony would ask for a design and give no brief or deadline and it would lie on the shelf for months until we had a row about it. Basically we fell out. I still work with New Order as I'm close to them, and if Tony wants something special I'll do it.

You said in a recent interview that your brief is usually wide open - are your designs ever rejected and for what reasons?

Sometimes but it never reaches the design stage, just an idea. There's a lot of discussion beforehand though my work is hard in relation to ‘pop groups'; as they have ideas but cannot technically articulate them - that's when I get out the books. In the old days, I should have turned more things down but it was like a compliment being asked to work. Even a really naff project is still a compliment. Now I turn most sleeve offers down.

On what grounds would you turn a client down? Ultravox are surely 'bad art' in this respect, so is your continued association purely a financial one?

Ultravox originally came to me with one song,'Vienna', which I really liked and for two years they were a good vehicle for Peter Saville Associates ideas which wouldn't suit New Order or OMD. They never interfered, and if the budget ever went over the odds, they’d always pay when necessary. The stage set for the Quartet tour cost a fortune, and for a mainstreet group to finance that is great I wasn't mad about their music though, and they began to have ideas of their own, so I haven't worked for them for some time though. Only the other week Billy Currie took me out for a meal.

Be honest how much do you charge?

It differs. I obviously don't charge Section 25 as much as Wham!, but its usually around £2,000 Wham! are good customers to have.

Do you always try to relate a sleeve to the specific band or record, for example, 'Closer' for Joy Division was very fitting, whereas 'The Strange Boutique' by the Monochrome Set not so.

In a way. Of the two you cite Joy Division decided that the sleeve was THE one for 'Closer', and it obviously catches the whole thing. The Monochrome Set presented me with that image and I worked around it; though the music means nothing to me.

Sleeves such as 'Power, Corruption and Lies' , 'From the Hip' and the newer OMD sleeves (i.e. the computer graphics) are all designs far removed 'from your previous styles and of different genres: how do you react to the accusations of dilletante-like hopping from style to style?

They're absolutely true! but for me it's an educational process. Times change. There is, I think a stylistic similarity in their simplicity, arrangement and presentation. The colour codes look good and do in fact contain messages, though they result in pretty hilarious attempts to de-code them. I see things and adapt them, but I hate to see this when no proper attempt at design is made - it means nothing, has no pattern.

You said recently that you always credit other designers when using their ideas. Yet, sleeves such as ‘Movement’ and ’Procession' are directly taken from others but bear no credit bar your own. In effect, you're being paid for the work of others .... defend!

I'd not heard either of the two records at all, and New Order had no ideas, so they chose them straight from the book. I wanted to credit the artist, but they refused, so I just added the Graffica Industria moniker as a token gesture towards the Italian Futurists. Obviously I've not stuck to one style. But I can have sleeves from Roxy Music, New Order, Ultravox and OMD all released and in the shops at the same time, and yet all look different, whereas - say - Neville Brody couldn't, though I don't mean that as an insult. The Face as a magazine is absolutely him for example.

Are you restricted by the economics involved in the lavish sleeve, especially given the present climate? Not everyone can afford something as grand as Section 25's 'Always Now’.

I don't really do over the top designs now anyway, it's not the right time for aesthetic reasons. When I first worked for Din Disc/ Virgin after Factory it came as an immense shock that sleeves couldn't cost more than 40p etc. One design I had was for a black and white outer with a colour inner, which was turned down immediately, as it would only be seen after the buyer took it home.

Are designs ruined by 'outside agencies' in between leaving you and arriving on the racks?

Sometimes, but a printer's problems are different. If you visit the factory for a half-hour then they're being careful, but as soon as you leave they're back to printing record sleeves again. I have to make a real nuisance of myself over Wham! and I'm actually banned from most major labels: ABC were interested in working with me.

Would you like your work to be seen as 'record sleeves' only, or as good designs in their own right, free of associations which might cheapen them?

Well, I'm just not a rock 'n' roll person anyway, though most people in the business love it. My sleeves are received better outside the business itself, such as OMD'S 'Architecture and Morality'. A great thing is that through association I can give ideas to kids: on OMD’s 'Architecture and Morality' tour I put together an architectural slide show, and to see 5,000 people stop, watch and applaud was quite something.

Does the 'art establishment* recognise you as it might, and see your present medium as a legitimate/serious art form?

It seems to. If I give talks in art colleges, I expect to be given a hard time by tutors who really know their stuff, but in fact they appreciate the fact that I've turned people on to Tschishold, etc. I've also designed new identities for galleries such as The Fruitmarket in Edinburgh and the Whitechapel.

Was the recent Riverside Studio exhibition (via Factory) the first of its kind for you?

Some time ago there was an exhibition called 'Cover Versions' which was myself and about five others, and which went abroad. Riverside wasn't an exhibition as such - Tony just stole my 'new brutalism' quote from the publicity. All I did was four banners, displayed with The Durutti Column.

Who are Peter Saville Associates exactly?

Myself, obviously. Early on there was Martin Atkyns, Ben Kelly, and then Brett Wickens. Also Ken Kennedy, Trevor Key, plus Martha Ladly has helped on little bits (Martha Ladly of Muffins fame, latterly 'The Associates'). There's no-one at the moment as I don't want a company, as I originally did.

You say you're now too old, and want to move away from musical areas ......

Well, I'm twenty-nine and I just can't see the point any longer. If I ran PAS as a company I'd cease to be an artist, but would be surrounded by people cranking out things. I did think I'd like to work on corporate identity, i.e. advertising and packaging but it isn't sufficiently motivating, I want to cause a stir and produce designs that match the times. But, those areas are only selling goods and not my statements. I now have to find an area for personal expression but one that I can also earn a living from! I'd like an institution, but you have to fight for these things. Graphics are not on a par with art, photography or fashion, but are more a service industry instead of direct purchase. What I'm doing, and want to do, just isn't a good idea at the moment!

James Neiss