1991 10 26 NME The Other Two

Electronic Revenge!

Barney's had his fling, Hooky's struck out alone and now the other two have become... THE OTHER TWO! Stuart Maconie corners New Order's home-loving half, Gillian Gilbert and Stephen Morris, and discovers they're playing happy families with the, erm, other two again.

Duo-zone: Kevin Cummins

Rob Gretton, mercurial manager of New Order and all-round 'character', returns from the bar with the round. Tomato juice for your diligent journalist, earnest pint of bitter for Stephen, vodka and tonic for Gillian.

Stephen takes up a sip of bitter and I reflect, as you do, on those immortal words of Flaubert: "Be regular and ordinary in your life, like a bourgeois, that you may be violent and original in your work." Stephen toys with his lighter, Gillian nibbles her salt'n'vinegar crisps. Regular? Yes. Ordinary? On the surface, extremely. Bourgeois? Well, they do own a farm. Violent? I doubt it.

But original? Oh yes. Stephen Morris and Gillian Gilbert, singly, conspiratorially, tucked in the corner of a city centre pub, may look like young marrieds wondering what to take home from Mark's & Spencer's for tea or complaining about each other's bosses, but they are not. They are, in fact, two of the most important figures in the popular music of our time. Life would be a duller place without them. If you would like to hear more rash claims and ill-founded assertions about what is good and bad in the realm of pop, you've come to the right place.

Two years ago New Order returned from a (by their standards) preposterously long US tour and promptly decided 'never again'. Nerves shredded, heart-sick and, in at least one case, on the verge of hospitalisation, they returned to England to play one barnstorming set at the Reading Festival before turning their backs on the business of being a pop group, at least for a while.

In reality, it these last two years have been a hibernation for New Order, then maybe more bands should hibernate, even the good ones. For a start, there was the small matter of a Number One single. 'World in Motion' was a fabulously implausible notion from the off - world's coolest post-modernists attempt to continue the series of landmark recordings exemplified by 'Back Home' and 'Nice One Cyril'. It was as if the Pet Shop Boys had recorded the theme from You've Been Framed. Of course, it worked perfectly, the song's pellucid modernism and vague 'positive' message knitting sweetly with football's new enlightenment and the rise of the trendy love-vibe terrace chic. Folks went mad for it, and England won the World Cup.

Also along came a host of solo ventures that recalled the halcyon days of progressive rock and 'taking some time out, y'know, to do our own thing. Like Barry's got this opera ...' Hooky brought forth Revenge, a darkly sinister electro-biker ensemble who produced one seriously great single ('Pineapple Face') and one seriously overlooked album ('One True Passion'). More glamorously, Barney gathered around him some thrillingly cool mates under the aegis of Electronic, easily the great pop thing of the year. Born under a favourable star (or rather four favourable stars). Electronic produced some ace music and casually became pop giants. Unsurprisingly, it's their success that's added more fuel to the 'New Order Defunct' stories.

Which just leaves ... the other two. The quiet ones. The domesticated ones. The clever ones. The technical brains. You know, the ones with the farm. As New Order wound down operations for the duration, so Stephen and Gillian immersed themselves in their TV soundtracks, most notably the BBC's Making Out, and became very popular and in demand. They were highly sceptical of doing the World Cup song and would have concentrated on their project with esteemed film director Michael Powell had he not died before work started.

Fortunately for us, Stephen and Gillian's latest venture is not some creaking-door and creepy noises soundtrack venture. For, having given themselves the groaningly-ironic title of The Other Two, they have made the pop single of the year. Alright, that was a rash claim just to get your attention, but the principle is sound. If there's been a more exhilarating few minutes than 'Tasty Fish' in this year of hoary Canadian rock singers and that crap woman out of Oceanic, then I haven't heard it.

It's a gleaming danceable electronic pop tune, very much as you would expect from part of New Order's conceptual bulkhead. It's powerful, robotic but melancholy, contagiously rhythmic and icily cool. All the things that great New Order records are, as a matter of fact. But it's more. Gillian's vocals add a new dimension and, somewhere along the line,  somewhere in the integrated circuitry, it has acquired what we scientists refer to as the 'Kylie factor', an inexplicable mathematical constant that increases logarythmically a tune's chances of being taken to the hearts of millions. Call it fun, call it ebullience. Whatever it is, it's what makes 'Baby Love' more edifying than Bruce Dickinson's 'Tattooed Millionaire'. Kylie herself has it but doesn't understand it. The Manic Street Preachers claim to understand it but where is it? The Hothouse Flowers have never heard of it. And on the evidence of 'Tasty Fish', The Other Two have bottled it. The now obligatory 50 quid says it will be Number One... forever.

In just one of the very many terrific moments on 'Tasty Fish' Gillian sings "Send a letter cos I'm sick of talking". Very apt.  Stephen and Gillian are shy. Everybody says so. And there is no getting round the awkwardness of the situation as we shunt round our corner table. I produce my tape recorder. "Right, Gillian. Get ours out then," he says, worryingly, but he is joking. Really, there is only one sensible question to ask any pop group and that is, why bother? Now I can understand why you should bother releasing a single as good as 'Tasty Fish' but even so it's a good start. Why bother? Stephen makes a face.

"Why bother? Good question," Gillian concurs, deadpan. "We wonder that ourselves sometimes."

Stephen: "Why bother making a record on our own? Because no-one else turned up, I suppose. Because we'd done all our bleedin' soundtracks and what have you and then we thought New Order would start up again last year but it didn't. Anyway, we'd just turned down this soundtrack, Duke City, a three-parter on drugs and Scottish masons. Dave Stewart got the job in the end, so we thought we'd make a record out of all the stuff we had lying around. We also turned down, for health reasons, a Channel 4 documentary on female circumcision." He winces. "I draw the line at soundtracking female mutilations".

Gillian: "It involves a very different way of working. Sometimes they don't want tunes, they just want spooky ambient noises. But with Making Out we were beginning to introduce little private jokes, little nearly-tunes and references to Euro-disco. And we had a few of these. We got the single out of them, in fact."

"But we've lost some of the original cornball element, I hope," adds Stephen, grinning.

So what you're saying is, what with putting the soundtracks on hold and New Order's re-start stalling a little, you invented The Other Two because you hadn't got anything better to do?

"Erm, that's about the size of it," answers Stephen sheepishly.

"It was something to do and it was very entertaining and interesting," remarks Gillian from behind her bag of crisps. "It was very much an experiment, having to do everything ourselves. It's something we never have to do in New Order, we've always got the other two to depend on."

The Other Two?

Stephen: "Ha. You see. Just one of the many little ironies lurking in the name waiting to trip you up..."

But evidently, you picked up this pop group malarkey very quickly. Gillian recollects that, "it was hard at first but we did get lots of help. Stephen Hague was really helpful. He would come up to our studio at weekends off his own bat and give us advice. He advised me to have singing lessons actually."

A sudden, wonderful image of a member of New Order standing behind a piano on which a tray of macaroons lie on doilies. A woman in pince-nez is saying "Now really Mr Hook. Again. Do Re Mi..." Gillian laughs.

"Well, it's not exactly like that. First, they pick notes out on the piano and you have to see if you can reproduce that note. They want to see what your pitch is like. And then they do a lot of work on your breathing. It just makes you a lot more confident about singing in front of people. And it works. Barney's had some too. It just stops you getting endlessly annoyed with yourself for not being able to hit certain notes or frustrated because you can't get to the end of the line without breathing."

"She was dead good, actually," says Stephen enthusiastically. "We had this song and Gillian just couldn't sing it. It was all over the place. The singing teacher pointed out that it was set in the wrong key. We moved the key around and it was fine. She had you doing smiling lessons and all, didn't she? It was nice having someone going round the house smiling all day long."

"It was an experience," agrees Gillian coolly.

So having decided to make a real pop record, was it just like making music with New Order except minus the other two?

"The Other Two?"

Oh, you know what I mean!

Stephen: "Well, we found out a lot of things that we wouldn't normally have done. We learned by our mistakes. And it's had its advantages for all of us. We're back writing as New Order again now and we're doing things much more quickly. So tell the readers that. Everything's coming along quite nicely!"

In a moment of genuine modesty, Stephen, with reference to The Other Two's material, exclaims queryingly, “We’re still not sure why anyone would want to put it out... and they might not yet, you know. It was just that Phil Sachs (Factory A&R man) came along and said ‘why don’t you put out a cheap and cheerful pop record’. Which is precisely what we did. So we rang up and said ‘We've done it now... can we have some money?’”

WITH THE release of Tasty Fish’ and an album to follow in February, all the component parts of New Order will have placed their ‘solo’ (can two people make a solo record?) efforts before the populace. It might seem like a planned chapter in the group’s development but apparently...

Stephen: “No, we're telling the truth. If New Order had got going again quicker, we’d have never bothered making any Other Two records. Although, as Gillian says, those songs would have formed the basis of some New Order material. But I’ve never had any burning desire to make a solo record. It’s never seemed like a particularly positive thing to do. I’m not calling anyone who does get into it but I’ve never felt that held back or stifled by the group.”

You can understand Bill Wyman wanting to make a solo record, presumably as an outlet for things of his that The Stones won’t do, but I guess that doesn’t apply in your case?

Stephen: “As an interesting point, did you know that Bill Wyman is the most successful Rolling Stone as a solo artist? Or have you forgotten ‘Je Suis Un Rock Star’? You should read his book. He’s at pains to point this out.”

Gillian: “But that attitude doesn’t apply to New Order. I don’t think anyone in New Order could have grounds for feeling like that. We don’t reject each other’s ideas as crap. That’s never happened and it never will. We take on board everyone’s ideas... even if the finished stuff might sound nothing like it.”

So what did happen with New Order? You can’t blame the pop kids for putting two and two together and coming up with something gloomy when the band return from a self-confessedly demoralising tour in tatters and promptly go underground. And the next we hear is they’re all off forming bands of their own? Stephen pauses.

“It was an accident. We sort of accidentally stopped... and then we accidentally got together again for ‘World In Motion’. I never expected that to do well at all. Frankly, I thought it was a completely bobbins idea. I wanted to do the Michael Powell thing we had lined up but A) it was put very persuasively to us that we wouldn’t make much money, and B) Michael Powell died. So we did it and in the end it was a great success but originally I just thought of all the terrible football records there'd been.”

But with a little prompting Stephen and Gillian agree that New Order’s hiatus was not just a matter of accidents.

Stephen: “After that last tour, I think we really had to take a step back from New Order. All of us. It’s touring that does that to you. Everything’s fine for about two weeks and then the rot sets in...”

Gillian picks up the thread. “Suddenly, you’re miles away. You’re in the third week and you think, ‘there’s another four to go’. Everything and everybody begins to get on your nerves. You begin to think, I could be at home. You know what I mean? Maybe if we were a normal group the whole thing would come much easier to us. But we’re not a normal group. You’re left with this problem of switching from being Mr Rock ‘n’ Roll to toddling off to bed.”

So does the rock ’n’ roll lifestyle agree with you or not? We hear wildly conflicting rumours on this one. Stephen groans.

“The rock ’n’ roll life is a sham, it’s a myth. It only exists in the heads of those people who desperately want to live it out. At some point, at eight o’clock or at six am or whatever, you drop it. You clock off. Because you can’t live your life like that. It just isn’t feasible. You have to be a particular kind of person to enjoy hanging around hotel lobbies waiting to get recognised. I’m quite happy never getting recognised. Especially by the taxman.”

Ever thought you’re in the wrong line of work? There is a moment of cold realisation.

Gillian: “You know, you might just be right.” Stephen adds: “Well, it’s down the job centre for us tomorrow then.”

Of course, the domesticated Macclesfield farm owners angle has been rather over-played, hasn’t it? I mean, surely you’re just the eensiest bit rock ’n’ roll?

Stephen: “Gillian will always be the last to go to bed. She’ll stop up ’til the bitter end.” Gillian giggles embarrassedly. “I’ll stop up with anybody, me.” Stephen adds a parental voice.

“Of course, I have to be the voice of reason. I have to come along with my shepherd’s crook at some point and drag her off to bed.” Gillian’s eyes mist over. “A bit of wistful reminiscence going on here, I think.”

SO, WHILE we’re here and while there is a tape recorder running, how about answering this one for the folks at home. Have New Order split up or what? A ripple of amusement and exasperation runs around the table.

Stephen: “We’re making a bleedin’ record now! Why am I working my balls off making two records? We've been doing it for three months."

Gillian: "I don't think people will believe us even when the record comes out. I was in the Hacienda and this girl said to me, 'Are you New Ordering yet?' like it was some sort of flippin' disease. As if you come down with New Order. I suppose it's flattering but everyone seems terribly worried that we've had some awful row."

Stephen: I heard a good one the other day. Apparently, we don't even speak to each other in the studio. Which brings the correction from Gillian. "No. That's Spacemen 3. Now that's a right tiff."

Stephen: "But the things you hear. 'Did you know that New Order chase each other round the stu dio with axes?'" There is much laughter at this idea. "But after that last tour we did need to step back. Otherwise we probably would have split up. You get to the point where it's 'if he does that one more time, I'll kill him'."

But it's easy to see why New Order are such fertile soil for the breeding of rumour. As a group they have always traded in mystery. Ned's Atomic Dustbin are many things but mysterious is not one of them. New Order, however, have always been surrounded by a glamorous patina of enigma. This leads to trouble. What do The Other Two think are the major misconceptions about themselves and their fellow New Order team-mates? Stephen jumps in gleefully. "Oh, you're good at this, Gillian." Gillian, however, is unmoved, "I'm saying nothing."

So Stephen trots out a famous litany. "Oh, you know. That we're miserable. That we're aloof and detached. That pisses me off. Perhaps we should play up to it. Perhaps we should get shirty more. Sulk, storm out of interviews..."

But as Gillian adroitly remarks "the biggest misconception is that we're splitting up."

There's also a fairly persistent rumour that you are the musical brains behind New Order. Gillian laughs heartily.

"Oh, I know all about this. I started it. (Adopts whingey, Lancastrian voice) 'We do everything, us.' Stephen puts the record straight.

"It's crap. There's no truth in it whatsoever. Everybody does their bit. And even if it were true..." His voice trails off.

What about rivalries? With the best will in the world and all the best notions of being supportive and comradely, you must be secretly looking to out-do each other’s success. It’s a perfectly natural form of sibling rivalry. Nothing to be ashamed of.

“We’ve never done that,” asserts Stephen. “Other people are probably more interested in that. We're not competitive. I've no interest in turning music into a competitive sport. I remember as a kid reading letters in the NME that said ‘Jimi Hendrix is a better guitarist than Tony McPhee - I mean, who cares?”

The obvious thing to say about the releases of Electronic, Revenge and The Other Two is that each, in their different way, sound like New Order. I have no problem with this. But what is the indefinable something that infiltrates all these records? Gillian attempts a hesitant theory.

“It’s something emotional; a certain feeling. They’re not just dance tracks. And it’s something to do with being together for ten years. Shared experiences...”

Did you invent House music, by the way? He laughs.

“Well, I haven’t heard from the patent office yet. I don’t know about inventing it, but they certainly borrowed off us. Literally borrowed off us.”

6.30 PM. The workers are wondering whether they can risk another quick one before their dinner goes in the cat. Gillian and Stephen are politeness itself but they clearly don’t like doing this. This situation is part of what they call ‘the grim realities of the music industry’; interviews, okaying sleeves, waiting to be judged. Stephen indulges in a little wistful reminiscence of his own. “I was in an off-licence once and these two kids came in and one said ‘Ere, aren’t you in New Order?’ and his little mate said ‘Yeah, but you were better in Joy Division’.”

Were you in Joy Division, then? Hey, just my little joke! The Other Two (“Don’t look for too much irony in the name. We’re crap at names and it was getting late”) will release an album next year as a companion piece to their single. Did I tell you how fantastic the single is by the way? Oh, I did. Still, don’t hold you breath waiting for The Other Two’s careers to unfold.

Stephen: “Never again.”

Gillian: “I’m not doing one with him. The solo contracts are coming through. Divorce, the lot."

Stephen: “Gillian wiped my Heavy Metal guitar solos, you see. But, to be honest. New Order is our priority now. So, if we do any more stuff, it won’t be for ages."

Gillian folds her crisp packet neatly and puts it in the ash-tray. “I’m having the front-person lessons this weekend. How to swing the mic stand, how to look like you’re enjoying yourself like proper groups. How to say ‘are you ready to rock?’”

The Other Two. Miserable, aloof, detached, not a proper group, all done with computers, regular, ordinary, bourgeois, violent, original, fantastic. Are you ready to rock? Hardly.