1984 05 05 Record Mirror New Order interview

Order, please

DID YOU know that New Order think half their lyrics are garbage? That Peter Hook reckons their gigs are good for getting drunk and picking up girls? And that Bernie thinks Joy Division were four dumbos from Manchester? Will you ever be able to wear a long black coat and listen to 'Thieves Like Us' again? Read on...

• AN AUDIENCE WITH BERNIE

HOW DO you normally put together songs?

Well, we rehearse three times a week We just jam. and put the jam down on to tape We'll use a minute of it to write a song around... say. a bass line, or a synth line

Who writes the lyrics?

I write about 60 per cent of them.

There seemed to be quite a difference in the way you wrote between ‘Movement’ and 'Power, Corruption And Lies'. What sort of changes of attitude did you go through?

Personally, when we wrote 'Movement', we were still in a state of shock from Ian dying.

I think that was part of the reason for the way 'Movement' turned out. The other reason is that we really missed having him there to help us write the songs. With Joy Division, we all used to write four equal parts. A lot of people think Ian wrote all the lyrics, and we wrote all the music. But he contributed his taste to the music; like, he'd say That's good', or That isn't good' — and he was right, because he had a really good ear for things. Losing Ian was like having your right arm ripped off — you've got to learn to do everything that you normally did. with you left arm. 'Movement' reveals that process of learning, because I didn't know how to write lyrics — I'd never wanted to write lyrics in my life! But I do enjoy it now

On 'Power, Corruption And Lies', though, there are things that seem like you taking the mickey out of what people expect of you,..

I'm a really lazy person, right, dead lazy. Half the songs we play live, I can't remember the lyrics — really, honestly. I can't! On 'Power, Corruption And Lies', we got to the stage where we went into the studio, and everyone said, 'Right, where's the lyrics?' — and I'd go, 'Aah... I've not actually written any!' So we'd sit down in the studio, and we'd all get the feeling of the song from the music; and someone would come up with a line, and we'd add to that, and everyone would contribute. That was a really good way of doing it. I really enjoyed it that way, because everyone knows what the song's about.

What I was getting at, though, was that you did have this massive reputation to live up to. and some of the lyrics seemed to be referring to that: like the line from 'Ultraviolence': 'Everybody makes mistakes — even me!'

Well, because we do what we do, we re expected to be perfect — and we're not perfect! I did get a bit pissed off by people's attitude to us, people saw us as really serious, intellectual doom-merchants. And we're not — we're just completely the opposite of that! Because we didn't talk to the Press, because the Press had nothing feeding them, they contrived a false image, and portrayed that image. A lot of people think the lyrics on 'Power, Corruption And Lies' are taking the piss, but that's because they got the wrong impression of us in the first place.

• A HUNDRED BAD THINGS

WAS IAN the very serious, introspective person in Joy Division, more so than the rest of you?

He used to write lyrics at home, he wrote all the time. In fact, if he hadn't been in a group, I think he would have been a writer.

When he was sat at home, at night, I think he was very introspective. In that sort of situation, you tend to dig down deep, right inside you, to the things that are most crucial in your life. When he was with the group, he was nothing like that at all; he was a really good laugh, a really jovial sort of person. You see, this is what annoys me — because people just take the impression from his lyrics, everybody's got the wrong idea of Ian. Ian committed suicide because a hundred bad things happened to him in a hundred days. Everything went wrong all at once; it was really weird. But he wasn't like the impression people have got of him; he was really good fun, a real laugh

One other bit of lyric I wanted to throw at you was the line from ‘Leave Me Alone' which is repeated several times: 'You get these words wrong every time'. I wondered if that was aimed at the audience... 

Maybe it was subconsciously. Sometimes the Press dig too deep into a lyric... a lot of the lyrics we write are just garbage! But you don't get a whole song that's garbage.

Within that song, there's some good lyrics, and within that song, there's some shit lyrics! Because I believe in negative and positive, you see; you've got to have good and bad in everything We'd sit down in the studio and write some line... (laughs)... all right, let's be honest — some of the lyrics we just got fed up with writing 'em. so we just bunged a line in like, 'From my head to my toes, through my teeth, to my nose!' Basically, as long as I enjoy the process of doing it, then the end result's valid, because it reveals enjoyment in the song.

• MYTHOLOGY

ARE YOU still plagued with people who view you as almost like saviours of the human race?

We never were saviours of the human race...

I realise that, but there was such a myth built up around you...

We were just four lads from Manchester — basically, four dumbos from Manchester — and we just wrote what we felt; and for some reason, people thought it was earth-shattering! And maybe it was. because maybe everybody else felt those feelings within them. Now, we've done that - we did it as Joy Division — and there's no point in us just repeating that. We're not just sad and angry 'cause that's how I see Joy Division's music, as sad and angry.

Do you intend that the Arthur Baker collaboration will carry on over a long time, then?

I don't know. It would be interesting to work with different people... I've always liked Ennio Morricone, and I thought it would be quite interesting to work with him. It'd be good for him to work with a pop group... it'd be something new for him to do.

Anyone that we find interesting... like Kraftwerk I thought that maybe we could work with Kraftwerk. do something with them.

• 15 MINS WITH PETER HOOK

IN THE period after Ian died, were there any formats for the new group considered other than the one which you are now using? Did you consider getting a new singer?

We did. yeah. Nothing ever came of it... we took the easy way out!

How did Gillian come to join?

She was just asked. We wanted someone that was like ourselves, y'know... a bit unschooled! She always followed Joy Division. She used to come to a lot of gigs, so we thought we'd see if we could educate her!

In the early days of New Order, when you and Bernard were taking over the singing, were you confident as vocalists? Did you always feel you could do it?

Well, anyone could do it! You could do it! Whether you're any good at it or not is open to interpretation. We thought that we were alright, which was all we wanted for the time being, while we felt our way. I don't particularly think that Ian was a great singer, as a singer I don't think of myself as a great bass player — and I certainly know Barney's not a great guitarist!

In the early days, though, there were sometimes gigs where the vocals could barely be heard...

That was through crap PAs.

There was also a video for the single 'Temptation' In which the vocals were barely audible...

That's probably the recording. Or maybe it was a subconscious way of hiding. The attitude to the singing was like when we started playing, as Joy Division; you play shit, but eventually it leads to something. That's what happened with the singing.

• DON'T MENTION PAUL YOUNG

WHAT DID you make of the Paul Young interpretation of 'Love Will Tear Us Apart'?

Same as I made of most of Paul Young's records — they’re alright! It was only like us doing 'Louie Louie' — I mean, what would The Kingsmen say about our version of 'Louie Louie'? We used to play that, along with that Lou Reed one, what’s it — 'Waiting For Me...'

'Waiting For The Man'

... Which is the same as 'Louie Louie’! Same sort of riff... I presume Paul Young liked it, and thought he'd just do it. I don't care... he can do 'Blue Monday' if he wants. I'd like to hear it! "It's like everyone calling (insulting) 'Love Reaction' by Divine — I think it's quite a good record. I'd rather listen to it than listen to 'Blue Monday'.

Are you consciously now making records that people can dance to?

No. The records we've written since then apart from ’Confusion', have been unlike Blue Monday' — they're not danceable rhythms.

• BIRDS 'N' BOOZE

WHAT DO you hope that the people who come to see you, and who listen to or buy your records, will get out of it?

A record and a gig! The same thing I get when I pay to see somebody! You go for the crack, don't you? You go for the night out. You go to listen — if you like it, you like it, if you don't, you don't! You go to cop, you go to get pissed! It's just a memory, isn't it?

I mean, someone might come and get beat up, and think, 'God, they were shit', someone might come and cop for some really fit bird, and think, 'Wow, they were great — what a night!'

If you feel, then, that all you're doing is providing pop music that people can go and get drunk to, or pull the opposite sex to, then why do you resist such a large part of what pop groups normally go through? I mean, why do you not give many interviews, why do you not do 'Top Of The Pops' unless you can play live, why are you rarely in the magazines, and so on...

Well, it's perfectly natural to me to play live. I think miming's ridiculous. That was the idea of the 'Confusion' video — we didn't have to mime. It showed film of us playing it — we were actually playing. So, luckily, we pulled that one off. I think it turned out quite well. The reason we don't do interviews is because they're very samey, and people do tend to have a lot of preconceived notions of what you're gonna say, and what you should say; and if you don't comply, they either don't listen to you, or just say 'Oh, well, I'll have a word with Bernard'. The press has never given me much; and through talking to a lot of them, I don't think they have got anything to give. They do provide an invaluable service, because they let people know about things that are happening, but, luckily, I'm in a position where — Thank God — we can exist without them!

Dave Jennings